Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mike Bard]

I was going to wait and send a long organized e-mail to Jon+Scott privately,
but since it seems that the cat is out of the bag...

There are a few major options being tossed around currently:

1. Always fight in two ranks
2. -3 First Contact penality instead of -2
3. Always first full two ranks and fight 1/2 3rd
4. Count one infantry type higher frontally if steady (my contribution*)
5. Either base them as LMI/LHI and have them NOT take waver tests if charged
by mounted frontally, or base them as MI/HI and have them move as LMI/LHI.
(my other contribution*)
6. Make hoplites irregular.
7. Steady hoplites are a cause of disorder.

*Mine are somewhat radical as the basic ones have already been suggested.

An expansion of #4: From the front when fighting a hoplite, even a naked
one, you had a big round shield, a big bronze helmet, a couple of eyes
glaring at you, a couple of skinny legs (which may or may not be armoured)
and a pair of feet. And a big pointy thing. In otherwords, pretty well
everything facing you is armoured in metal.

What I mean by "one infantry type higher" is that MI counts as HI and HI
counts as EHI. But only front the front and only if the body is steady. In
other words, the fact that they carried this huge shield and advanced with
it means that the huge shield does something more than a little 1' diameter
buckler. :)

An expansion of #5: At Marathon the hoplites advanced at a run for a
significant distance (don't have the numbers handy though I did post them in
the spring), beat the Persians, and then marched back to Athens. This
suggests a movement modification. The "no waver if charged frontally by
mounted" is due to the fact that mounted was afraid to charge them as
Christian mentioned.

Now for the number crunching....

Note: In all cases I'm going to work out a 1 element frontage and assume
that the elements extend equally in both directions. I'm also going to
assume that all rolls are even.

Opponent 1: Persian Immortals (Early Achaemenid Persian, List 28 WRG Book 1)
Historical Results: Persians Win.
- Regular A HI JLS, Sh OR B.
I am going to assume that the front rank is JLS, Sh and the second rank is
B. I am also only going to work out the numbers vs EHI and HI as the
hoplites were primarily metal/linen armoured at Marathon (assuming that a
naked hoplite is "MI" and an armoured hoplite (even linen) is "HI"). I am
also including the "irregular option" as this would allow the centre to
charge impetuously cancelling the Persian charge.

Bound 1: Shooting:
Against HI: 2 figures shooting (half for either range or rear rank): 2@1 ->
3
- If at 1 rank of hoplites (which should lose) -> nothing (of course, an up
1 will cause 1CPF)
- If at 2 ranks hoplites (which should win) -> nothing
Against EHI: 2@-2 ->1

Bound 2: Hoplites and Immortals charge. Since Immortals are regular this
case will ignore the Irregular/Can't cancel Charge option
Persians:
- Against HI: 4 figures SA+JLS -2 for first contact +1 charge -> 4@2 -> 8; 2
figures support shooting: 2@-1 -> 1 -> total 9.
- Against HI when stand to receive (irreg Hoplites charge impetuously), no
charge, no -1: 4@3 -> 10; 2 figures support shooting: 2@-1 -> 1 -> total 11
(hoplites at 3CPF one element frontage)
- Against EHI: 4 figures SH+JLS -2 for first contact +1 charge -> 4@-1 -> 3;
2 figures support shooting: 2@-3 -> 0 -> total 3.

Athenians:
1 rank of hoplites (since the Athenian centre was thinner than the flanks:
- Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@2 -> 8
- Against HI if charge impetuously: 4 figures LTS, +1 charge + 1
Impetuous -> 4@4 -> 12

If HI REGULAR Athenian recoil. If HI IRREGULAR AND Impetuous then EHI
Persians recoil.

Bound 3: Locked in combat, one side or other recoiling.
Persians:
- Against HI: 4 figures SA+JLS, +1 follow up -> 4@4 ->12; 2 figures support
shooting: 2@-1 -> 1 -> total 13
- Against Impetuous HI: 4 figures SA+JLS -> 4@3 -> 10; 2 figures support
shooting 2@-1 -> 1 -> total 11
- Against EHI: 4 figures SH+JLS -> 4@0 -> 4; 2 figures support shooting:
2@-3 -> 0 -> total 4

Athenians:
1 rank of hoplites:
- If HI (and recoiled) Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@2 -> 8
- If IRREGULAR HI (and pushed Persians back): 4 figure LTS +1 follow up ->
4@3 -> 10
- If EHI (and pushed Persians back) Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@3 -> 10

Net results: If Athenians are REGULAR HI then Persians win. If Athenians
are IRREGULAR HI then Persians will eventually win, especially once
Athenians are Tired (next bound). If Athenians are EHI then Persians lose.

Conclusion: EHI option is NOT viable. Both Irregular AND Regular HI are
viable. Remove Option #4

But, what if the Persians are 2 ranks of JLS and no B?

Option 1a: Persians Immortals at Marathon consisting of 2 ranks armed with
JLS (i.e no B)

Bound 1: Hoplites and Immortals charge. Since Immortals are regular this
case will ignore the Irregular/Can't cancel Charge option
Persians:
- Against HI: 6 figures SA+JLS -2 for first contact +1 charge -> 6@2 -> 12
- Against HI when stand to receive (irreg Hoplites charge impetuously), no
charge, no -1: 6@3 -> 15
- Against EHI: 4 figures SH+JLS -2 for first contact +1 charge -> 6@-1 -> 4

Athenians:
1 rank of hoplites (since the Athenian centre was thinner than the flanks:
- Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@2 -> 8
- Against HI if charge impetuously: 4 figures LTS, +1 charge + 1
Impetuous -> 4@4 -> 12

If HI REGULAR OR IRREGULAR the Hoplites recoil. If EHI then Persians
recoil.

Bound 2: Locked in combat, one side or other recoiling.
Persians:
- Against HI: 4 figures SA+JLS, +1 follow up -> 6@4 ->18
- Against Impetuous HI: 4 figures SA+JLS -> 6@3 -> 15
- Against EHI: 4 figures SH+JLS -> 6@0 -> 6

Athenians:
1 rank of hoplites:
- If HI (either type) (and recoiled) Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@2 -> 8
- If EHI (and pushed Persians back) Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@3 -> 10
Note: Athenians are now tired.

Bound 3 with tired hoplites:
Persians do 18 (as hoplites now recoiling)
Athenians: 4 figures LTS tired -> 4@2 -> 8

Conclusions: HI (Reg or Irreg) loses; EHI wins. Therefore option 4 (upgrade
one rank frontally) is NOT viable. Consider it removed.

Opponent 1b: Persian Immortals (either with JLS both ranks, or 1/2 JLS 1/2 B
suffering a -3 first contact penalty against regular hoplites)
Note: I'm going to ignore initial range shooting as it doesn't do much.

Bound 1: Everybody charges
Persians:
- Against HI: 4 figures SA+JLS -3 for first contact +1 charge -> 4@1 -> 6; 2
figures shooting -> 2@-1 -> 1 -> 7
- Against HI if all JLS: 6@1 -> 9

Athenians:
1 rank of hoplites (since the Athenian centre was thinner than the flanks:
- Against HI: 4 figures LTS -> 4@2 -> 8

Bound 2: Locked in combat, Somebody Recoiling
Persians:
- Recoiling (JLS+B armed): 4 figures SA+JLS -> 4@3 ->10; 2 figures
shooting -> 2@-1 -> 1 -> 13
- Pushing Greeks Back (JLS only): 6 figures SA+JLS -> 6@4 -> 18

Athenians:
1 rank of hoplites:
- If fighting JLS+B and pushed back Persians: 4 figures LTS +1 Follow Up ->
4@3 -> 10
- If fighting JLS only and recoiled: 4 figures LTS -> 4@2 -> 8
In both cases the Persians eventually win so both possibilities are valid
solutions.

Opponent 2: Persian Immortals at Platea fighting Hoplites 2 Deep: Historical
Result: Persians Lose
Note: I am not going to work out the "-3 first contact penalty" as it would
just make the Persians lose faster.

Bound 1 Persian Shooting -> does nothing (see Opponent 1 above)

Bound 2:
Persians:
- Against REGULAR HI: 4 figures SA+JLS -2 for first contact +1 charge ->
4@2 -> 8; 2 figures support shooting: 2@-1 -> 1 -> total 9.
- Against IRREGULAR HI: 4 figure SA+JLS -> 4@3 -> 10; 2 figures support
shooting: 2@-1 -> 1 -> total 11

Greeks:
- REGULAR (non-impetuous) Against HI: 8 figures LTS +1 charge -> 8@3 -> 20
- IRREGULAR (impetuous) Against HI: 8 figure LTS +1 charge +1 impetuous ->
8@4 -> 24

Bound 3:
Persians:
- Against HI (since recoil in both cases no need to differentiate): 4
figures SA+JLS -> 4@3 -> 10; 2 figures support shooting: 2@-1 -> 1 -> total
9.

Greeks:
- (As rules stand - 1.5 ranks since not charging - REGULAR or IRREGULAR
makes no difference) +1 Following up Against HI: 6 figures LTS -> 6@3 -> 15.
- (always fight 2 ranks) +1 Following up Against HI: 8 figures LTS -> 8@3 ->
20.

Persians are defeated (historical result)
NOTE: Due to the superior casualties caused by the Greeks, the Persians
would be tired whether facing REGULAR OR IRREGULAR hoplites.

Opponent 2b: Persian Immortals at Platea fighting Hoplites 2 Deep:
Historical Result: Persians Lose. Assume the Immortals are all JLS armed.

Bound 1:
Persians:
- Against REGULAR HI: 6 figures SA+JLS -2 for first contact +1 charge ->
6@2 -> 12
- Against IRREGULAR HI: 6 figure SA+JLS -> 6@3 -> 15

Greeks:
- REGULAR (non-impetuous) Against HI: 8 figures LTS +1 charge -> 8@3 -> 20
- IRREGULAR (impetuous) Against HI: 8 figure LTS +1 charge +1 impetuous ->
8@4 -> 24

Bound 2:
Persians:
- Against HI (since recoil in both cases no need to differentiate): 6
figures SA+JLS -> 6@3 -> 12

Greeks:
- (As rules stand - 1.5 ranks since not charging - REGULAR or IRREGULAR
makes no difference) +1 Following up Against HI: 6 figures LTS -> 6@3 -> 15.
- (always fight 2 ranks) +1 Following up Against HI: 8 figures LTS -> 8@3 ->
20.

Persians are defeated (historical result)
NOTE: Due to the superior casualties caused by the Greeks, the Persians
would be tired whether facing REGULAR OR IRREGULAR hoplites and due to the 2
rank of Greeks the Hoplites would NOT be tired.

Note: I am not going to do the 2 full ranks + 1/2 3rd as it's just a bigger
win for the Greeks.

INTERMISSION 1: So far we have eliminated the "EHI" option. All other
options so far do not violate history.

Opponent 3: Thracian Barbarian Scum (Irreg C LMI 1/2 2HCW+JLS, 1/2 JLS)
(Historical Results - Greek Win)
Note: Shooting is ignored as I'm going to assume the Thracians are smart
Barbarian Scum and start their charge when the two bodies are separated by
more than 40 paces. The Thracians are charging Impetuosly like the
Barbarian Scum they are.
Note 2: I'm going to run with both HI and MI Greeks.

Bound 1:
vs. HI Greeks
Thracians:
3 figures 2HCW Charging Charging Impetuously, -2 facing LTS -> 3@9 -> 29;
2nd rank JLS: SA+JLS Charging Charging Impetuosly -> 2@4 -> 6 -> 35
3 figures 2HCW Charging Charging Impetuously, -3 facing LTS -> 3@8 -> 23;
2nd rank JLS" SA+JLS Charging Charging Impetuosly -> 2@3 -> 5 -> 28
vs MI Greeks
Thracians with -2 penalty vs MI: Total 37
Thracians with -3 penalty vs MI: Total 29

Greeks: (standing to receive charge since Thracians start more than 80 paces
away being really smart Barbarian Scum)
6 figures LTS Standing -> 6@3 -> 15
8 figures LTS Standing (always fight 2 ranks) -> 8@3 -> 20
10 figures LTS Standing (always fight 2 ranks, 1/2 3rd rank) -> 10@3 -> 25

In Thracians are disordered unless fighting the "as they stand now"
hoplites. In no cases are the Thracians routed. The Greeks are always
recoiled, and are always disordered.

Bound 2:
Thracians:
vs HI Greeks
3 figures 2HCW following Up, Tired -> 3@6 -> 15. 2nd rank JLS -> 2@3 ->
5 -> 20
3 figures 2HCW following Up, Disordered, Tired -> 3@5 -> 12. 2nd rank
JLS -> 2@2 -> 4 -> 16
vs MI Greeks
Disordered: 17
Not Disordered: 21

Greeks: (recoiling disordered)
Greeks: LTS, Disordered, Thracians Shieldless: 6@4 -> 18
(always 2 ranks) LTS, disordered, Thracians Shieldless: 8@4 -> 24
(2 ranks + 1/2) LTS, Thracians Shieldless: 10@4 -> 30

Bound 3: Greeks are tired and disordered. Thracians recoil ONLY if they're
disordered.
Conclusions: The current rules result in the Greeks getting gradually beaten
by a smaller number of Thracian Barbarian Scum. Any of the penalty or rank
modifications eventually result in the Greeks winning because they're NOT
disordered on the bound of contact. Or even routing the Thracians...

Opponent 3a: The Greeks can "always charge or counter charge"

Bound 1:
Thracians:
vs HI: 35
vs MI: 37

Greeks:
8 figures LTS charging -> 8@4 -> 24

Conclusions: Both sides are disordered, eventually Thracians lose.

Opponent 3c. Hoplites are a cause of unease.

The Thracians do NOT get the Impetuous bonus and thus do only 22 at contact.
The Hoplites are not disordered and eventually win.

INTERMISSION 2: If one assumes that the Thracians should lose, then the
current rules fail the test. Any of the suggested upgrades (EXCEPT making
Hoplites Irregular) fix the problem. If hoplites are IRREGULAR then they
still can't charge (out of range) and just die faster as they take double
fatigue. If hoplites can move as loose order then the same thing happens as
they are still REGULAR. This eliminates the "IRREGULAR" option as a
solution. - but see Pike combat below

Opponent 4: Phillip's Pike Phalanx (Historical result - STANDOFF)
Note: Historically at Charoneia Philip held the phalanx in front of the
hoplites but did not engage them. He pinned them so that Alexander would
charge them in the flank. This suggests that Philip was, at least, not
confident of the phalanx superiority to hoplites.

Phalanx: Reg C MI P
Greeks: Reg C MI LTS

Bound 1: Both bodies charge

Macedonians:
- 12 figures fighting w/ Pike +1 Charging -> 12@4 -> 36
- 12 figures fighting w/Pike (stand to receive as Greeks Irreg and charging
Impetuously) -> 12@3 -> 30

Greeks:
- Regular Hoplites: 8 figures fighting +1 Charge (current rules, additional
"facing hoplite" penalty doesn't apply as Pike doesn't take penalty) ->
8@4 -> 24.
- Irregular Hoplites: 8 figures fighting +1 Charge +1 Impet Charge, -2 P
first contact -> 8@3 -> 20
- Hoplites fighting full 2 ranks, 1/2 3rd rank: 10 figures fighting +1
charge -> 10@4 -> 30

The pike disorder the hoplites. If the hoplites are irregular then the pike
are forced into disorder (do NOT need a second check as per the
clarifications for 5.52). 2+1/2 ranks results in hoplites recoiling
disordered.

Combat Results:
- Current Rules: Hoplites almost certainly break next bound. In other words,
P kill hoplites dead.
- Irregular Hoplites: Hoplites almost certainly break next bound.
- Extra Ranks: Hoplites disordered, dead next bound.

Conclusions: None of the posed solutions would give Phillip any hesitance
about engaging. In all cases the best action is to charge the P forward
like madmen and crush the hoplites at contact.
NOTE: If hoplites are HI via the MI->HI solution #4 then the Pike do 30 and
the hoplites do 24 on first bound with the result that the hoplites are
disorded, the pike are not, and the hoplites die.

Opponent 4a: Assume that the -3 first contact penalty for LTS applies to the
P either fully, or only the difference (-1), or the normal -2 first contact
penalty applies fully to the phalangites

Macedonians:
- 12 figures, charging, -1 first contact -> 12@3 -> 30
- 12 figures, charging, -3 first contact -> 12@1 -> 18
- 12 figures, charging, -2 first contact -> 12@2 -> 24

Greeks:
- 8 figures, charging -> 8@4 -> 24

Bound 2:
Pikes suffer net -1: Pikes kill Hoplites dead
Pikes suffer net -2: Standoff - best die roll wins
Pikes suffer net -3: Hoplites win

Conclusions: If only the penalty difference is applied, then the Greeks die
on bound 2. If the full penalty is applied, then the Pike are gradually
pushed back and eventually destroyed. If the standard -2 penalty is applied
then it is an exact tie at contact. This is closest to the historical
result I think that Phillip was expecting.

INTERMISSION 3: The up-armour solution is still out. The only other
solutions are to make the hoplites IRREGULAR, or have the -2 penalty apply
against PIKE or ALWAYS apply against ALL weapons.

Opponent 5: Roman HI with HTW (Roman win)
Note: The Romans gradually abandoned LTS hoplites (Triarii) for pilum. They
beat the Etuscans which first used LTS. This suggests that pilum should
beat LTS.

Romans are HI, HTW, Sh. Etruscans are HI, LTS, Sh. Both are fighting 2
ranks deep (or 3 in the case of 2 full ranks plus 1/2 3rd).

Bound 1: Both charge into combat.

Romans:
6 figures with HTW Charging: 6@6 -> 30
6 figures with HTW Charging -2 penalty that ALWAYS applies -> 6@4 -> 18

Etruscans:
8 figures with LTS Charging: 8@3 -> 20
10 figures with LTS Charging (full 2 plus 1/2 3rd): 10@3 -> 25

Bound 2:

Romans:
Disordered, following up: 6 Figures w/SA, Disordered: 6@1 -> 9
Following up: 6 figures w/SA: 6@3 -> 12
Disordered recoiling: 6 figures w/SA disordered -> 6@0 -> 6
Recoiling: 6 figures w/SA: 6@3 -> 15

Etruscans:
6 figures with LTS following up: 6@3 -> 15
6 figures with LTS following up, disordered: 6@1 -> 9
6 figures with LTS recoiling: 6@2 -> 12
10 figures with LTS following up: 10@3 -> 25
10 figures with LTS recoiling disordered: 10@0 -> 10

In base rules, or with any penalty not applying, Romans kill Etruscans in
second bound. If the -2 penalty applies and nothing else, both sides are
disordered, Etruscans will eventually win. If the 10 figures apply then
both sides are disordered, the Romans are following up, the Romans
eventually win.

Conclusions: Applying the -2 penalty ALL the time is far too powerful.
Possibly it should apply only against P. All of the other combinations
work.

Opponent 6: Companion Cavalry (HC) vs Hoplites (MI) frontally

Bound 1: Companions Charge. Hoplites react.

Companions:
- 5 figures with lance vs. MI with LTS. Charging. 5@3 -> 13
- Charging with -3 penalty: 5@2 -> 10
- Charging Impetuously: 5@5 -> 20

Greeks:
- 6 figures standing to receive non-impet charge: 6@4 -> 18
- 6 figures standing to receive impet charge: 6@5 -> 24
- 8 figures counter-charging (can always charge): 8@5 -> 32

Conclusions: This makes it suicide for Campanions to charge hoplites
frontally, as opposed to the possibility of crushing the hoplites if they
roll up 1.

FINAL CONCLUSIONS:

1. Always fight in two ranks.
- Assuming that Phillip's Phalanx should have killed the hoplites dead, this
solution solves the problem.

2. -3 First Contact penality instead of -2
- Again this solves the problem. If you assume the penalty is NOT cancelled
when facing P it solves the Phillip problem.

3. Always first full two ranks and fight 1/2 3rd
- Same as Option 1. Works all the time, does not solve the Phillip problem.

4. Count one infantry type higher frontally if steady (my contribution*)
- FAR FAR too powerful. Forget it was ever mentioned.

5. Either base them as LMI/LHI and have them NOT take waver tests if charged
by mounted frontally, or base them as MI/HI and have them move as LMI/LHI.
(my other contribution*)
- Doesn't solve or help anything, including the Pike problem as the P can
still countercharge. It would change the larger tactical situation though.

6. Hoplites are Irregular. Causes too many other problems.

7. Hoplites cause disorder. A rule that solves things that have other
solutions and could cause additional problems.

So, what do I propose after all this?

OPTIONS TO DUMP:

The FRONTAL ARMOUR UPGRADE solves nothing.

The IRREGULAR upgrade solves some problems, causes others. Plus, it just
doesn't sit right with me. Hoplites spent two years actively drilling, not
to mention the ongoing athletic training.

HOPLITES CAUSE DISORDER. Though this solves the Thracian problem, it
doesn't come into affect against anything else. I do worry that this makes
hoplites too powerful against cavalry, particularly flank or rear charges.
Hece I would reject it.

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

ALWAYS FIGHT IN TWO RANKS OR ALWAYS CHARGE/COUNTER-CHARGE. Both of these
solve most problems (except against Phillip at Charoneia). Either of these
would be a solution. It should be noted that the affect of these is pretty
well the same although the "always fight in 2 ranks" make subsequent bounds
of contact more affective. Not enough to change anything though. The
question is whether the hoplites should stand a lot, or act agressively.
Given my knowledge of history, and the fact that it has a minimal affect on
other interactions in the game (as it only affects things on the first
bound) I would prefer the ALWAYS CHARGE/COUNTER-CHARGE option.

FIGHT IN 2 RANKS PLUS 1/2 THIRD RANK. This also solves some things, but
there are other ways to achieve the same results. It would have a larger
affect against non-historical opponents than other solutions. On a personal
level I would NOT like this as I'd have to look at rebasing my army or
painting many more figures to get the 3rd rank. It would also cause less of
a figure/basing overlap with other historical game systems. For these
reasons I would vote against this option.

MOVE AS LMI/LHI: Making hoplites move as LMI/LHI (or base them as LMI/LHI
with special rules) doesn't break anything, but doesn't solve anything on a
straight tactical combat comparison. However it does change the way the
army plays tactically. This option can be used with any of the above. One
option would be to give hoplites an option, like Hypaspists, to be either
LMI/LHI OR MI/HI. This would allow a lot of the things Xenophon did and
would not break the system. I would like the last variation of this one
(option in the list - either/or) as it would make the army more interesting
to play, and it really doesn't break anything.

FINAL SUGGESTIONS (finally):
1. Have hoplites always be able to charge. This gives the desired
historical results with a minimum of changes on bounds after the bound of
contact. It also solves the problem with being charged by Companions. In
other words, it modifies the least rules.
2. The -2 penalty for facing Steady non-impetuous LTS applies only vs LTS
and P. It does NOT apply vs HTW. This resolves the Phillip at Charoneia
problem.
3. Either have an option for hoplites to be MI/HI or LMI/LHI in an any/all
number choice. This shows the flexability of hoplites, their superiority
over phalangites (phalangites were cheaper to equip and required less
training and hence were "faster to produce") and makes Hypaspists be either
Hoplites OR Phalangites which fits in their historical role.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

P.S. All of the above assumes my numbers are correct. Please double-check
them.

P.P.S. Yes, more thought experiments need to be done with all three changes
above in place. I'll leave that in somebody else's hands for now.

[joncleaves]

Best post of the year, Mike (barring a Warrior Christmas joke mail from Texas at
the 11th hour...lol)

This will be fully considered by FHE, I guarantee it.

Jon

Greetings

Were Thracians using 2HCW in the main classical hoplite era? Duncan
Head refers to the first reference to rhompaia being in about 200BC
and Webber (The Thracians) estimates that 'The rhompaia probably came
into use around the late 4th century, the date of the first excavated
examples.'

While I'd be happy saying that the Sacred Band, and other picked
bodies were 'enlisted into permanent units' (Warrior 2.11) was this
really true of all hoplites? Mercenaries like the 10,000 were
clearly acting more like regulars than irregulars and this is
probably true of an increasing number of hoplites of several states
during the 4th century BC.

Regards

Edward


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bard" <mwbard@r...>
wrote:
[much good stuff snipped]

> Opponent 3: Thracian Barbarian Scum (Irreg C LMI 1/2 2HCW+JLS, 1/2
JLS)

[more good stuff snipped]

>
> The IRREGULAR upgrade solves some problems, causes others. Plus,
it just
> doesn't sit right with me. Hoplites spent two years actively
drilling, not
> to mention the ongoing athletic training.
>

[Doug]

>Best post of the year, Mike (barring a Warrior Christmas joke mail
>from Texas at the 11th hour...lol)
>
>This will be fully considered by FHE, I guarantee it.
>
>Jon

Does it also need to be analyzed WRT army points? For example,
paying for MI but counting as HI leaves points which could form a
larger unit for CPF and also create an overlap situation, or form
another unit entirely. If not equal points, then a normalized ratio
of points for each opposing unit.

[Tim Grimmett]

There are a couple (mis)computations (I think): In the Thracian example the -2
for LTS is mentioned but not taken into account (should be 3 * 7 vice 9); in the
Macedonian example, Mike allows 12 pike figures to fight when receiving an
impetuous attack vice 8.

Allowing hoplites to charge impetuously--while retaining other benefits of being
regular--and countercharge in all other circumstance, might be a way ahead. Two
full ranks becomes an issue in later bounds but not the first, and may still be
worthy of consideration

Impetuous LTS vs pike is 8 * 3+1 (impt)+1 (char) -2 facing Pike(because
impetuous) results in a lock vs pike which is also 8 @ 3 ;

My question is: will making Spartans A's or B's be enough to make them
qualitatively better than other Greek hoplites (assumed C's)?

TBG






Michael Bard <mwbard@...> wrote:
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

ALWAYS FIGHT IN TWO RANKS OR ALWAYS CHARGE/COUNTER-CHARGE. Both of these
solve most problems (except against Phillip at Charoneia). Either of these
would be a solution. It should be noted that the affect of these is pretty
well the same although the "always fight in 2 ranks" make subsequent bounds
of contact more affective. Not enough to change anything though. The
question is whether the hoplites should stand a lot, or act agressively.
Given my knowledge of history, and the fact that it has a minimal affect on
other interactions in the game (as it only affects things on the first
bound) I would prefer the ALWAYS CHARGE/COUNTER-CHARGE option.

FIGHT IN 2 RANKS PLUS 1/2 THIRD RANK. This also solves some things, but
there are other ways to achieve the same results. It would have a larger
affect against non-historical opponents than other solutions. On a personal
level I would NOT like this as I'd have to look at rebasing my army or
painting many more figures to get the 3rd rank. It would also cause less of
a figure/basing overlap with other historical game systems. For these
reasons I would vote against this option.

MOVE AS LMI/LHI: Making hoplites move as LMI/LHI (or base them as LMI/LHI
with special rules) doesn't break anything, but doesn't solve anything on a
straight tactical combat comparison. However it does change the way the
army plays tactically. This option can be used with any of the above. One
option would be to give hoplites an option, like Hypaspists, to be either
LMI/LHI OR MI/HI. This would allow a lot of the things Xenophon did and
would not break the system. I would like the last variation of this one
(option in the list - either/or) as it would make the army more interesting
to play, and it really doesn't break anything.

FINAL SUGGESTIONS (finally):
1. Have hoplites always be able to charge. This gives the desired
historical results with a minimum of changes on bounds after the bound of
contact. It also solves the problem with being charged by Companions. In
other words, it modifies the least rules.
2. The -2 penalty for facing Steady non-impetuous LTS applies only vs LTS
and P. It does NOT apply vs HTW. This resolves the Phillip at Charoneia
problem.
3. Either have an option for hoplites to be MI/HI or LMI/LHI in an any/all
number choice. This shows the flexability of hoplites, their superiority
over phalangites (phalangites were cheaper to equip and required less
training and hence were "faster to produce") and makes Hypaspists be either
Hoplites OR Phalangites which fits in their historical role.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

P.S. All of the above assumes my numbers are correct. Please double-check
them.

P.P.S. Yes, more thought experiments need to be done with all three changes
above in place. I'll leave that in somebody else's hands for now.


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[John Murphy]

Just a random thought but maybe the answer here is to make the
Persians of Xerxes and Darius (vice Cyrus) absolutely suck rather
than to make hoplites, well, not suck? For instance, what if the
Persian foot in the examples was D-class so would never charge the
hoplites if prompt were required? Or even E-class? Just how good
were the bulk of Persian troops freshly unchained from the galleys
at Marathon or Plataea? On the other hand were the hoplites of Lydia
or the other Asian coastal states able to stand up to the Persians?
I'm not sure the whole problem is really that clear-cut as
presented. Even at Marathon/Plataea there might have been other
tactical factors. And personally I think saying hoplites should
stand up to phalagites at all is questionable but okay maybe folks
have a reason. Maybe a solution is just to run hoplites deeper that
the ranks fighting, for CPF benefit. A 12E unit with the LTS -2 in 3-
4 ranks of figures is going to be tough to shoot or beat straight-up
without pikes or HTW, even impetuous companions. No rules change
required. A bigger issue, given who hoplites mostly historically
fought against <g>, is how will Warrior create the supposed
superiority of Spartans and later Thebans against other hoplites,
other than by just making them heavier high-morale and more
expensive? While still maintaining the ability of Spartan hoplites
to be trashed by light troops like at Sphacteria (sp).

Back to lurking for me.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Tim,
I believe that being either Reg A or Reg B is not enough. In this case it
is only a morale difference which does not take into account that martially, the
Spartans and other elites are a head taller when it comes to combat. It seems to
me that something should be done. what is wrong with always giving A class
troops a +1 in battle?

kelly wilkinson

Tim Grimmett <grimmetttim@...> wrote:
There are a couple (mis)computations (I think): In the Thracian example the -2
for LTS is mentioned but not taken into account (should be 3 * 7 vice 9); in the
Macedonian example, Mike allows 12 pike figures to fight when receiving an
impetuous attack vice 8.

Allowing hoplites to charge impetuously--while retaining other benefits of being
regular--and countercharge in all other circumstance, might be a way ahead. Two
full ranks becomes an issue in later bounds but not the first, and may still be
worthy of consideration

Impetuous LTS vs pike is 8 * 3+1 (impt)+1 (char) -2 facing Pike(because
impetuous) results in a lock vs pike which is also 8 @ 3 ;

My question is: will making Spartans A's or B's be enough to make them
qualitatively better than other Greek hoplites (assumed C's)?

TBG






Michael Bard <mwbard@...> wrote:
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

ALWAYS FIGHT IN TWO RANKS OR ALWAYS CHARGE/COUNTER-CHARGE. Both of these
solve most problems (except against Phillip at Charoneia). Either of these
would be a solution. It should be noted that the affect of these is pretty
well the same although the "always fight in 2 ranks" make subsequent bounds
of contact more affective. Not enough to change anything though. The
question is whether the hoplites should stand a lot, or act agressively.
Given my knowledge of history, and the fact that it has a minimal affect on
other interactions in the game (as it only affects things on the first
bound) I would prefer the ALWAYS CHARGE/COUNTER-CHARGE option.

FIGHT IN 2 RANKS PLUS 1/2 THIRD RANK. This also solves some things, but
there are other ways to achieve the same results. It would have a larger
affect against non-historical opponents than other solutions. On a personal
level I would NOT like this as I'd have to look at rebasing my army or
painting many more figures to get the 3rd rank. It would also cause less of
a figure/basing overlap with other historical game systems. For these
reasons I would vote against this option.

MOVE AS LMI/LHI: Making hoplites move as LMI/LHI (or base them as LMI/LHI
with special rules) doesn't break anything, but doesn't solve anything on a
straight tactical combat comparison. However it does change the way the
army plays tactically. This option can be used with any of the above. One
option would be to give hoplites an option, like Hypaspists, to be either
LMI/LHI OR MI/HI. This would allow a lot of the things Xenophon did and
would not break the system. I would like the last variation of this one
(option in the list - either/or) as it would make the army more interesting
to play, and it really doesn't break anything.

FINAL SUGGESTIONS (finally):
1. Have hoplites always be able to charge. This gives the desired
historical results with a minimum of changes on bounds after the bound of
contact. It also solves the problem with being charged by Companions. In
other words, it modifies the least rules.
2. The -2 penalty for facing Steady non-impetuous LTS applies only vs LTS
and P. It does NOT apply vs HTW. This resolves the Phillip at Charoneia
problem.
3. Either have an option for hoplites to be MI/HI or LMI/LHI in an any/all
number choice. This shows the flexability of hoplites, their superiority
over phalangites (phalangites were cheaper to equip and required less
training and hence were "faster to produce") and makes Hypaspists be either
Hoplites OR Phalangites which fits in their historical role.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

P.S. All of the above assumes my numbers are correct. Please double-check
them.

P.P.S. Yes, more thought experiments need to be done with all three changes
above in place. I'll leave that in somebody else's hands for now.


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