Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 19:48:01 Central Standard Time,
mark@... writes:

<<(a) this is in addition to the usual -1 for facing 2HCT,>>

It is not.

<< and (b) that this
additional -1 is still suffered even by steady foot opponents armed with
HTW.>>


No it is not (9.42).

<<If so, I note that this conveniently works out so that your Han Chinese
chariots beat steady pikemen frontally on even die rolls.>>

They're not mine, and I kinda resent Not sure what the
historical basis for _that_ would be, but it does seem to be a consequence of
the math (assuming a detachment of JLS-armed runners behind the chariots).

(2) It should be entertaining to watch the hordes of Mongols who start
fighting
_dismounted_ as a result of these list rules. Certainly will make the Mongols
potent, but, again, I'm not sure what the historical basis is for allowing
Mongol cav to dismount 1 for 1.

(3) Is the really no basis whatsoever in the historical record for _any_
early
Chinese archers having shields? I'm no expert, but I find that surprising.

(4) This is the big one; the other three are just nit-picking: it would be
really cool, and greatly facilitate army list construction, if the army lists
came with command factors. Maybe it's just me, but I find that an army with
no
command factors doesn't fight very well.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Mark

Take a look at your questions before you re-ask them. I'll let Scott answer
the list ones, because that is what we do, but you may want to reconsider
them before he gets to them...

I do resent the reference that *I* would do something ahistorical with *my*
Han. Pretty bad form on your part.

But this one I have to respond to...

<<it would be
really cool, and greatly facilitate army list construction, if the army lists
came with command factors. Maybe it's just me, but I find that an army with
no
command factors doesn't fight very well.>>


Read the whole book, page 5 especially. There is no limit on them in OW,
and that is something we are going to do to all lists - mostly since no one
ever pays attention to them anyway...

I hope you wake up in a better mood tomorrow....

J








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Please ignore the mail where I started to answer the OW list rule questions.
That is Scott's prerogative.

Thanks
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 21:46:22 Central Standard Time,
mark@... writes:

So, Mongols show up in other books besides "Oriental Warrior". Will the list
rules that apply in Oriental Warrior be extended to Mongols in other lists in
other books?>>


Are you referring to one in particular?

Oh, and you can say, hey thanks guys for getting OW out anytime...lol









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

Jon, Scott,

Just got my copy of Oriental Warrior, and wanted to send off a few quick
comments.

(1) Chariots w/2HCT: Several lists have a rule that reads "HCh crew with 2HCT
fight at crew factors of +1 against all opponents except LI, and all H-t-H
opponents except LI suffer a -1 tactical factor adjustment." I'm assuming that
(a) this is in addition to the usual -1 for facing 2HCT, and (b) that this
additional -1 is still suffered even by steady foot opponents armed with HTW.
If so, I note that this conveniently works out so that your Han Chinese
chariots beat steady pikemen frontally on even die rolls. Not sure what the
historical basis for _that_ would be, but it does seem to be a consequence of
the math (assuming a detachment of JLS-armed runners behind the chariots).

(2) It should be entertaining to watch the hordes of Mongols who start fighting
_dismounted_ as a result of these list rules. Certainly will make the Mongols
potent, but, again, I'm not sure what the historical basis is for allowing
Mongol cav to dismount 1 for 1.

(3) Is the really no basis whatsoever in the historical record for _any_ early
Chinese archers having shields? I'm no expert, but I find that surprising.

(4) This is the big one; the other three are just nit-picking: it would be
really cool, and greatly facilitate army list construction, if the army lists
came with command factors. Maybe it's just me, but I find that an army with no
command factors doesn't fight very well.


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

--- On January 29 Jon Cleaves said: ---

<<(a) this is in addition to the usual -1 for facing 2HCT,>>
>
> It is not.
>

I understand that we are waiting for Scott to weigh in on this, but frankly if
this is _not_ in addition to the usual -1, then I fail to see what the point of
the list rule is. How is it different from the extant -1 for facing 2HCT?


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

So, Mongols show up in other books besides "Oriental Warrior". Will the list
rules that apply in Oriental Warrior be extended to Mongols in other lists in
other books?


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

--- On January 29 Jon Cleaves said: ---

>>
>> So, Mongols show up in other books besides "Oriental Warrior". Will the list
>> rules that apply in Oriental Warrior be extended to Mongols in other lists in
>>other books?
>>
>
> Are you referring to one in particular?
>
> Oh, and you can say, hey thanks guys for getting OW out anytime...lol
>

No, I wasn't actually referring to one in particular. A Mongol is a Mongol,
right?

And thanks, guys, for getting OW out.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

<<(1) Chariots w/2HCT: Several lists have a rule that reads "HCh crew with 2HCT
fight at crew factors of +1 against all opponents except LI, and all H-t-H
opponents except LI suffer a -1 tactical factor adjustment." I'm assuming that
(a) this is in addition to the usual -1 for facing 2HCT, and >>

Incorrect. This is actually *worse* than the normal rule as it does not work
againts LI whereas the normal rule works against all troop types.

<<(b) that this
additional -1 is still suffered even by steady foot opponents armed with HTW.>>

Incorrect. Steady HTW ignore this factor.

<<If so, I note that this conveniently works out so that your Han Chinese
chariots beat steady pikemen frontally on even die rolls.>>

Well, wrong on many counts. No, they do not beat pike. No, they are not 'my'
Han Chinese. No, as you insinuate, no one here did something ahistorical with a
list they like to play just to give it more capability. And, no, I personally
do not use Han chariots except as staff elements in any case....lol

J

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Being someone who gets to check out Jon's game frequently, he truly only uses
his chariots as staff elements. Li Ho Fuks "Lets others do his fighting for
him!"

kelly

JonCleaves@... wrote:
<<(1) Chariots w/2HCT: Several lists have a rule that reads "HCh crew with 2HCT
fight at crew factors of +1 against all opponents except LI, and all H-t-H
opponents except LI suffer a -1 tactical factor adjustment." I'm assuming that
(a) this is in addition to the usual -1 for facing 2HCT, and >>

Incorrect. This is actually *worse* than the normal rule as it does not work
againts LI whereas the normal rule works against all troop types.

<<(b) that this
additional -1 is still suffered even by steady foot opponents armed with HTW.>>

Incorrect. Steady HTW ignore this factor.

<<If so, I note that this conveniently works out so that your Han Chinese
chariots beat steady pikemen frontally on even die rolls.>>

Well, wrong on many counts. No, they do not beat pike. No, they are not 'my'
Han Chinese. No, as you insinuate, no one here did something ahistorical with a
list they like to play just to give it more capability. And, no, I personally
do not use Han chariots except as staff elements in any case....lol

J


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

Of course Jon didn't use them ... they didn't used to get all this
good stuff. ;-)

g

P.S. Thank you for getting this product out on time!



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Being someone who gets to check out Jon's game frequently, he truly
only uses his chariots as staff elements. Li Ho Fuks "Lets others do
his fighting for him!"