Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/27/2003 07:59:30 Central Daylight Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

> Chris and Jon,
>
> page 74 (11.212) Foot fighting mounted troops recoil
> and become disorder, unless the mounted break-off or
> rout.
>
> The pikes only become disordered vs. foot. If they
> face mounted and lose they are pushed back and
> disordered.
>
> Todd K
>

Another case of me being in a hurry..... You mean to tell me these Swiss
lost to cav???

Must've been one heck of an up roll. Or Gandalf was with the horses....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Chris and Jon,

page 74 (11.212) Foot fighting mounted troops recoil
and become disorder, unless the mounted break-off or
rout.

The pikes only become disordered vs. foot. If they
face mounted and lose they are pushed back and
disordered.

Todd K

--- cncbump@... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/26/2003 12:38:31 PM Central
> Standard Time,
> hailkaeser@... writes:
>
>
> > Swiss C-in-C in a 40 man pike/halberd unit (front
> HI)
> > to a 12 man EHC unit. The EHC hit the pike -
> rolled
> > up 4 (irreg A), pushed me back, next turn w/ 9
> figs
>
> Having run the swiss a few times myself, I think
> that you forgot that the
> pikes do not recoil after that first loss to cav but
> rather just go disordered.
> No recoil presumably means no followup and hence no
> expansion. The cav do get
> the benefit of fighting disordered foot, but should
> not get the follow up
> bonus. Of course an up 5 solves most all woes.
>
> My safety caveat... Jon are we playing that
> correctly?
> Chris
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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[Todd Kaeser]

Actually with the factors it's not that difficult for
EHC or EHK (pike has a same factor vs. both) to
successfully charge and push back pike - all things
considered.

Say 32 man pike block (2 wide/4 deep) vs. 12 man EHC
L,Sh.

16 pike @ 3 vs. EHC +1 steady P receiving an impetusou
mounted charge. 16 @ 4 = 48

9 lancers @ 4 + 1 charging, + 2 mntd imetuous, -2 vs.
steady pike 9@ 5 = 36.

While the pikes win on even rolls a mere + 2 swing of
the dice and the EHC are rolling the pikes back. I
see + 2 swings of the dice all the time and that is
scary considering how historically pike held off
countless charges against SHK nevermind mere EHC. I
know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.

Todd


--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/27/2003 07:59:30 Central
> Daylight Time,
> hailkaeser@... writes:
>
> > Chris and Jon,
> >
> > page 74 (11.212) Foot fighting mounted troops
> recoil
> > and become disorder, unless the mounted break-off
> or
> > rout.
> >
> > The pikes only become disordered vs. foot. If
> they
> > face mounted and lose they are pushed back and
> > disordered.
> >
> > Todd K
> >
>
> Another case of me being in a hurry..... You mean
> to tell me these Swiss
> lost to cav???
>
> Must've been one heck of an up roll. Or Gandalf was
> with the horses....
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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[scott holder]

While the pikes win on even rolls a mere + 2 swing of
the dice and the EHC are rolling the pikes back. I
see + 2 swings of the dice all the time and that is
scary considering how historically pike held off
countless charges against SHK nevermind mere EHC. I
know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.

>Actually, in the ancient sense, there are *no* data points upon which to make
this observation. I'm unaware of any instance where cav (not counting
expendables) charged pike in the Alexander on down to the Ptolemies era. Now,
maybe there was an instance in a Pontic context but again, I'm unaware of it.

>In the medieval context, we also have virtually no data points on which to base
this match up. The Swiss were the only pike users in any widespread sense of
the term and looking at their battles at the unit level, they were fighting
enemy foot. Now, we can always trot out the English charges into Scottish units
at places like Bannockburn (and we can also discuss the whole Scottish "spear"
and it's characterization in WARRIOR) as a case where massed infantry with long
pointy weapons easily beat the strawberries and cream out of the flour of
English knighthood. However, there's a very important distinction there, said
Scottish formations were *always* behind broken terrain, ditches, mud, crap,
etc. Therefore, the English were always hitting disordered.

>It's clear that in general, cav avoided pike like the plague. It's also clear
that players are still loath to toss cav into a pike block because of the
cost-benefit issues, the fact that if the cav doesn't do the job, it's gone
whereas the pike merely goes "huh? did something happen?" and can live a few
more hours to do other things. Yes, in the "we've got 15 minutes left to play
so everybody charges everybody" tourney mindset, you'll see all kinds of
crazyness:) I mean when playing against Ed last week, I tossed HK into a
Qin "pike" block that was actually just one rank of pike and one rank of bow
where I hit. All I would have done, at best, was to break through, which is
what I was hoping to do. His die roll swing outdid mine so Cortez was sent
hurtling back to his camp. And when running L Hungarians against the same army,
my goal was to kill everything around the pikes, not slam my precious SHK units
into them frontally.

>I find this thread interesting considering that all I ever hear at cons is how
EHC sucks, has no place in the game anymore, yadda yadda yadda.

scott

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/27/2003 12:38:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

> I
> know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.>>

Anything is scary that rolls up two more than about 10% of the time...lol. I
have no way to argue with you if you are regularly seeing 12-fig Irr EHC that
rolls up two more than expected value. Of course that will push back pike...

Heh.
Up 2 isn't all that uncommon. In fact I look at up 1 as rather
normal. Up 2 as nice that's about 50% and up 3 as the 10%
occurrence. How you play can often be majorly effected by your trust
in your dice. Just ask Chris and his 30+ waver checks that he made
in a row with uneasy C's.


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/27/2003 12:38:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hailkaeser@y... writes:
>
> > I
> > know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.>>
>
> Anything is scary that rolls up two more than about 10% of the
time...lol. I have no way to argue with you if you are regularly
seeing 12-fig Irr EHC that rolls up two more than expected value. Of
course that will push back pike...

[Todd Kaeser]

Charles Oman - The Art of War in the Middle Ages.

The Battle of St. Jacob-en-Birs (1444) Swiss vs.
Armagnac mercenaries of the Dauphin Louis.

"Possessed by the single idea that their phalanx could
bear down any obstacle, the Confederates numbering
less than 1,000 deliberately corssed the Birs in face
of an army of 15 times their strength. They attacked
it, broke its center, and were then surrounded by its
overwhenlming numbers. Compelled to form the hedgehog
in order to resist the tremendous cavalry charges
directed against them, they remained rooted to the
spot for the remainder of the day. The dauphin
launched squadron after squadron at them, but each in
its turn was hurled back in disorder." (pg. 96) It
wasn't until they were whittled (sp?) down by missle
fire did they succomb, but they took 2,000 w/ them.


The Battle of Grandson 1476
Swiss vs. Charles the Bold

With the Swiss relief column marching on Grandson the
vanguard of the Swiss came over the hill to find the
Duke's army arrayed on the field. Being the Swiss
they charged rather than wait for the rest of the
army.

"Old experience had made them (the Swiss) callous to
wuch sights (cavalry charges): facing outward, the
column awaited the onset. The first charge was made
by the cavalry on Charles' left wing; it failed,
although the gallant lord of Chateauguyon, who led it,
forced his forse amoung the pikes and died at the foot
of the standard of Schwyz. Next the duke himself led
on the lances of his guard, a force who had long been
esteemed the best troops in Europe; they did all that
brave men could, but wre dashed back in confusion from
the steady line of spear points." pg. 99

pg. 100 "Grandson was for the Swiss only one more
example of the powerlessness of the best cavalry
against their columns; of infantry fighting there was
none at all."

Pikes did face mounted and were hurled back time and
time again. I know very few people throw their
knights into pike, all I'm saying is that mere EHC if
lucky can win the day vs. a pike unit that
historically threw back much heavier cavalry.

Todd

--- "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...> wrote:
> While the pikes win on even rolls a mere + 2 swing
> of
> the dice and the EHC are rolling the pikes back. I
> see + 2 swings of the dice all the time and that is
> scary considering how historically pike held off
> countless charges against SHK nevermind mere EHC. I
> know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.
>
> >Actually, in the ancient sense, there are *no* data
> points upon which to make this observation. I'm
> unaware of any instance where cav (not counting
> expendables) charged pike in the Alexander on down
> to the Ptolemies era. Now, maybe there was an
> instance in a Pontic context but again, I'm unaware
> of it.
>
> >In the medieval context, we also have virtually no
> data points on which to base this match up. The
> Swiss were the only pike users in any widespread
> sense of the term and looking at their battles at
> the unit level, they were fighting enemy foot. Now,
> we can always trot out the English charges into
> Scottish units at places like Bannockburn (and we
> can also discuss the whole Scottish "spear" and it's
> characterization in WARRIOR) as a case where massed
> infantry with long pointy weapons easily beat the
> strawberries and cream out of the flour of English
> knighthood. However, there's a very important
> distinction there, said Scottish formations were
> *always* behind broken terrain, ditches, mud, crap,
> etc. Therefore, the English were always hitting
> disordered.
>
> >It's clear that in general, cav avoided pike like
> the plague. It's also clear that players are still
> loath to toss cav into a pike block because of the
> cost-benefit issues, the fact that if the cav
> doesn't do the job, it's gone whereas the pike
> merely goes "huh? did something happen?" and can
> live a few more hours to do other things. Yes, in
> the "we've got 15 minutes left to play so everybody
> charges everybody" tourney mindset, you'll see all
> kinds of crazyness:) I mean when playing
> against Ed last week, I tossed HK into a Qin "pike"
> block that was actually just one rank of pike and
> one rank of bow where I hit. All I would have done,
> at best, was to break through, which is what I was
> hoping to do. His die roll swing outdid mine so
> Cortez was sent hurtling back to his camp. And when
> running L Hungarians against the same army, my goal
> was to kill everything around the pikes, not slam my
> precious SHK units into them frontally.
>
> >I find this thread interesting considering that all
> I ever hear at cons is how EHC sucks, has no place
> in the game anymore, yadda yadda yadda.
>
> scott
>


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

I believe in this case, victory went to the Insanely bold! My charge came early
in the game! I knew a game with Todd would be brutal and decided to go nuts
while my army was fresh, using my best verses his best as it were! Luckily Ahab,
lived to tell his grandchildren!

Kelly

"Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...> wrote:
While the pikes win on even rolls a mere + 2 swing of
the dice and the EHC are rolling the pikes back. I
see + 2 swings of the dice all the time and that is
scary considering how historically pike held off
countless charges against SHK nevermind mere EHC. I
know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.

>Actually, in the ancient sense, there are *no* data points upon which to make
this observation. I'm unaware of any instance where cav (not counting
expendables) charged pike in the Alexander on down to the Ptolemies era. Now,
maybe there was an instance in a Pontic context but again, I'm unaware of it.

>In the medieval context, we also have virtually no data points on which to base
this match up. The Swiss were the only pike users in any widespread sense of
the term and looking at their battles at the unit level, they were fighting
enemy foot. Now, we can always trot out the English charges into Scottish units
at places like Bannockburn (and we can also discuss the whole Scottish "spear"
and it's characterization in WARRIOR) as a case where massed infantry with long
pointy weapons easily beat the strawberries and cream out of the flour of
English knighthood. However, there's a very important distinction there, said
Scottish formations were *always* behind broken terrain, ditches, mud, crap,
etc. Therefore, the English were always hitting disordered.

>It's clear that in general, cav avoided pike like the plague. It's also clear
that players are still loath to toss cav into a pike block because of the
cost-benefit issues, the fact that if the cav doesn't do the job, it's gone
whereas the pike merely goes "huh? did something happen?" and can live a few
more hours to do other things. Yes, in the "we've got 15 minutes left to play
so everybody charges everybody" tourney mindset, you'll see all kinds of
crazyness:) I mean when playing against Ed last week, I tossed HK into a
Qin "pike" block that was actually just one rank of pike and one rank of bow
where I hit. All I would have done, at best, was to break through, which is
what I was hoping to do. His die roll swing outdid mine so Cortez was sent
hurtling back to his camp. And when running L Hungarians against the same army,
my goal was to kill everything around the pikes, not slam my precious SHK units
into them frontally.

>I find this thread interesting considering that all I ever hear at cons is how
EHC sucks, has no place in the game anymore, yadda yadda yadda.

scott

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Forbes]

Remember, a +2 swing is also -1 / +1 along with the 0/+2 example. A 2
difference on the dice would seem to be better than an expected value of
10%, even taking into consideration that Swiss and other Reg B /A pike
need to roll down 2 to get the minus 1. Against C / D class pike it
should be significantly better than 10%. I need to pull out the old
stats book and run the numbers, but I feel that this is true.

Ed


> Say 32 man pike block (2 wide/4 deep) vs. 12 man EHC
> L,Sh.
>
> 16 pike @ 3 vs. EHC +1 steady P receiving an impetusou
> mounted charge. 16 @ 4 = 48
>
> 9 lancers @ 4 + 1 charging, + 2 mntd imetuous, -2 vs.
> steady pike 9@ 5 = 36.
>
> While the pikes win on even rolls a mere + 2 swing of
> the dice and the EHC are rolling the pikes back.

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[Phil Gardocki]

With regard to the +2 die swing.
The odds two regular units engaging and one player rolling + or - 2 or better
is 39%. Battles where both players roll dead even are 7.8%

Even battles are rarer than you think. +2 swings are more common than you
think 35% among regulars.

Phil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/28/2003 06:45:51 Central Daylight Time, PHGamer@...
writes:

> +2 swings are more common than you
> think 35% among regulars.
>

I don't think he meant +2 either way, I think he meant +2 in favor of the
cav, which is not 35%.

Even is still the most common result on both sides of the roll - that
7.whatever% number is misleading.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/28/2003 08:30:37 Central Daylight Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

> Kelly,
>
> I believe you remember the game differently;
>
> Todd
>

There's a shock...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Kelly,

I believe you remember the game differently; you
charged the pike w/ two turns left in the game after
you piddled around for 2 1/2 hours on the field as I
pushed to gain contact. Maybe I shouldn't have pushed
so hard I would never have met the irreg A EHC.

Todd

--- kelly wilkinson <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
> I believe in this case, victory went to the Insanely
> bold! My charge came early in the game! I knew a
> game with Todd would be brutal and decided to go
> nuts while my army was fresh, using my best verses
> his best as it were! Luckily Ahab, lived to tell his
> grandchildren!
>
>
> Kelly
>
> "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...> wrote:
> While the pikes win on even rolls a mere + 2 swing
> of
> the dice and the EHC are rolling the pikes back. I
> see + 2 swings of the dice all the time and that is
> scary considering how historically pike held off
> countless charges against SHK nevermind mere EHC. I
> know it's a game, but... lance armed cav is scary.
>
> >Actually, in the ancient sense, there are *no* data
> points upon which to make this observation. I'm
> unaware of any instance where cav (not counting
> expendables) charged pike in the Alexander on down
> to the Ptolemies era. Now, maybe there was an
> instance in a Pontic context but again, I'm unaware
> of it.
>
> >In the medieval context, we also have virtually no
> data points on which to base this match up. The
> Swiss were the only pike users in any widespread
> sense of the term and looking at their battles at
> the unit level, they were fighting enemy foot. Now,
> we can always trot out the English charges into
> Scottish units at places like Bannockburn (and we
> can also discuss the whole Scottish "spear" and it's
> characterization in WARRIOR) as a case where massed
> infantry with long pointy weapons easily beat the
> strawberries and cream out of the flour of English
> knighthood. However, there's a very important
> distinction there, said Scottish formations were
> *always* behind broken terrain, ditches, mud, crap,
> etc. Therefore, the English were always hitting
> disordered.
>
> >It's clear that in general, cav avoided pike like
> the plague. It's also clear that players are still
> loath to toss cav into a pike block because of the
> cost-benefit issues, the fact that if the cav
> doesn't do the job, it's gone whereas the pike
> merely goes "huh? did something happen?" and can
> live a few more hours to do other things. Yes, in
> the "we've got 15 minutes left to play so everybody
> charges everybody" tourney mindset, you'll see all
> kinds of crazyness:) I mean when playing
> against Ed last week, I tossed HK into a Qin "pike"
> block that was actually just one rank of pike and
> one rank of bow where I hit. All I would have done,
> at best, was to break through, which is what I was
> hoping to do. His die roll swing outdid mine so
> Cortez was sent hurtling back to his camp. And when
> running L Hungarians against the same army, my goal
> was to kill everything around the pikes, not slam my
> precious SHK units into them frontally.
>
> >I find this thread interesting considering that all
> I ever hear at cons is how EHC sucks, has no place
> in the game anymore, yadda yadda yadda.
>
> scott
>
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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/28/2003 13:13:46 Central Daylight Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

> Actually if there is a +1/-1 in favor of the EHC they
> push back the pike.
>

True. The argument is that a +2 differential in favor of one particular
player isn't as likely as a third of the time.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Actually if there is a +1/-1 in favor of the EHC they
push back the pike.

Like I've said I wouldn't do it , but it just seems
too easy considering the historical staying power of
the pike.

Todd


--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/28/2003 06:45:51 Central
> Daylight Time, PHGamer@...
> writes:
>
> > +2 swings are more common than you
> > think 35% among regulars.
> >
>
> I don't think he meant +2 either way, I think he
> meant +2 in favor of the
> cav, which is not 35%.
>
> Even is still the most common result on both sides
> of the roll - that
> 7.whatever% number is misleading.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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