Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Todd Kaeser]

Peter,

Here are more thoughts/questions for you to consider.

The Polybians have a problem in that they don't cover the needed frontage to
be a "push" type army. Therefore you must throw a fair amount of heavy terrain
to limit board space and be able to fight in the gaps that the terrain has left.
Assuming you get at least 2 decent terrain placements you will have the frontage
to push in that gap(s) w/ your 22 elements of punch (HI and Ele) I believe your
old list had only 12 or so elements of punch.

Irony that when the spanish/moog foot came out w/ the HTW/Jls combo people
freaked out b/c game balance was upset, but they are no longer the feared troops
due to the other changes that have taken place - list rules and a new doctrine
for how to fight them.

OK - w/ all that terrain on the board you have to be able to either take the
terrain, controlling it w/ superior troops, or be able to delay in the terrain
so that your main battle line isn't flanked during the battle. You actually
have both options due to the type of loose/open foot you have. The spanish are
best in the woods/marsh/rocky hills where heavy cavalry isn't a concern. You
can control/dominate terrain w/ those 2 units and some reg LI support, nevermind
the peltasts who are also great in most terrain. You can also delay w/ the LI -
reg LI is a major pain in the arse for most players to push out of a rough
terrain piece. It will usually take them multiple turns to kill them, unless
they get lucky (you fail your first counter, they charge and you roll a 2 to get
caught). What is great about the 2E units is that you actually cover MORE space
than if you are a bigger units. I know that the 2E units also have a major
problem that they can break so easily if you are
unlucky.

Think this one also. You are against a crafty veteran (insert name here) who
knows some things (he's scouted your list a little or knows the Polybian list
well enough) and he's also going to be throwing terrain at you. Now you have a
board covered w/ brush, marsh, steep hills, and woods 6-8 terrains pieces. Now
aren't you glad you have the 14 elements of spanish and peltasts + LI to go into
this mess??? Your 2E HI units and elephants can then fill the gaps in the
terrain while the LI/LMI push in the rough terrain.

Okay another scenario - you are facing said crafty veteran and YOU think he's
going to be throwing a lot of terrain to accomplish the above sceen. So you
throw opens and OOPS - so does he... now what? Well, you do have all those
lights to throw out there to slow life down for him and the peltasts are not
helpless in the open. They can extend you battle line well enough IF they are
kept supported. Unlike the Spanish they are not AS afraid of HC/EHC. Most
cavalry doesn't want to chance it against a supported peltast unit (only a 1/3
chance of a shake and bake vs. a 1/2 chance) The spanish could also function
(although not as well) as a support wave behind the HI and elephants. You could
extend your line fairly wide enough w/ the HI (and/or elephants) leading the way
and the peltasts/spanish/elephants as your second wave. I'd lay out the lead to
get a feel for how much space you could actually take up to see what terrain you
will most likely want to throw.

The Polybian list probably works better in 25mm than 15mm as the game board is
much reduced in frontage - therefore you can be a push army. The list as I
built it can do well in 15mm also.

Any thoughts on all of this???

Todd K

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
Thanks Todd:

That list looks very interesting, and I have the lead to try it (or
something like it) out, once I paint up some more velites. My only
concern would be that there are a total of 14E of LMI, either Spanish
or Peltast, and wonder if I might be better off with a few less and
some more legions or velites instead.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Just a few thoughts - Here's my list on Polybian - ran them a few
years ago under a few different circumstances, but this is how I would
run them w/ the new lists.
>
> CinC 1E Reg A HC Jls,Sh + PA - 154
> Sub 2E Reg A/B HC Jls,Sh + P - 117
> 3x 2E Tarentines Reg C LC Jls,Sh - 42 ea - 126 total
> 2x 2E Triarii Reg B HI LTS,Sh - 66 ea - 132
> 8x 2E Princ/Hast Reg B HI HTW,Sh - 66 ea - 528
> 2E Elephants Ir D 2 w/ Jls
> 5x 2E Velites Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26 ea - 130
> 2x 4E Spanish Scut Ir C (1E A) LMI HTW,Jls,Sh - 79 ea - 158
> 3x 2E Achaean Peltasts Reg C LMI LTS,Jls,Sh - 50 ea - 150
>
> total pts - 1596
> scouting - 26
>
> I love the 2E units. While they are not as tough as the 4E or 6E
variety they serve their purpose well and having many of them allowes
for multiple waves and flexibility in movement. The Elephants are
needed for unease and giving attack orders gives them a free charge.
Interdespered w/ the legions and the amount of LI, their free charge
should go off when you want it to. I would throw steep and rocky
hills, and marshes/woods to limit the board. You have enough loose
units to fill the terrain and enough close punch to fill the gaps in
between.
>
> my 2 cents here,
>
> Todd K
>






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[Todd Kaeser]

Peter,

Made a little mistake in my previous list. In order to meet the reg B
upgrades w/o going over the 1/2 here's the changes:

1 2E unit of Hastatii (sp?) goes to reg C (saves 8 pts)
add 2E of Velites to a unit of 2E (costs 16 pts)
you had 4 pts to play with so now you are only over 4 pts - 1604 + 1 scouting
pt.

now there are 14 elements of reg C and 14 elements of Reg B.

Todd K

Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
Peter,

Here are more thoughts/questions for you to consider.

The Polybians have a problem in that they don't cover the needed frontage to
be a "push" type army. Therefore you must throw a fair amount of heavy terrain
to limit board space and be able to fight in the gaps that the terrain has left.
Assuming you get at least 2 decent terrain placements you will have the frontage
to push in that gap(s) w/ your 22 elements of punch (HI and Ele) I believe your
old list had only 12 or so elements of punch.

Irony that when the spanish/moog foot came out w/ the HTW/Jls combo people
freaked out b/c game balance was upset, but they are no longer the feared troops
due to the other changes that have taken place - list rules and a new doctrine
for how to fight them.

OK - w/ all that terrain on the board you have to be able to either take the
terrain, controlling it w/ superior troops, or be able to delay in the terrain
so that your main battle line isn't flanked during the battle. You actually
have both options due to the type of loose/open foot you have. The spanish are
best in the woods/marsh/rocky hills where heavy cavalry isn't a concern. You
can control/dominate terrain w/ those 2 units and some reg LI support, nevermind
the peltasts who are also great in most terrain. You can also delay w/ the LI -
reg LI is a major pain in the arse for most players to push out of a rough
terrain piece. It will usually take them multiple turns to kill them, unless
they get lucky (you fail your first counter, they charge and you roll a 2 to get
caught). What is great about the 2E units is that you actually cover MORE space
than if you are a bigger units. I know that the 2E units also have a major
problem that they can break so easily if you are
unlucky.

Think this one also. You are against a crafty veteran (insert name here) who
knows some things (he's scouted your list a little or knows the Polybian list
well enough) and he's also going to be throwing terrain at you. Now you have a
board covered w/ brush, marsh, steep hills, and woods 6-8 terrains pieces. Now
aren't you glad you have the 14 elements of spanish and peltasts + LI to go into
this mess??? Your 2E HI units and elephants can then fill the gaps in the
terrain while the LI/LMI push in the rough terrain.

Okay another scenario - you are facing said crafty veteran and YOU think he's
going to be throwing a lot of terrain to accomplish the above sceen. So you
throw opens and OOPS - so does he... now what? Well, you do have all those
lights to throw out there to slow life down for him and the peltasts are not
helpless in the open. They can extend you battle line well enough IF they are
kept supported. Unlike the Spanish they are not AS afraid of HC/EHC. Most
cavalry doesn't want to chance it against a supported peltast unit (only a 1/3
chance of a shake and bake vs. a 1/2 chance) The spanish could also function
(although not as well) as a support wave behind the HI and elephants. You could
extend your line fairly wide enough w/ the HI (and/or elephants) leading the way
and the peltasts/spanish/elephants as your second wave. I'd lay out the lead to
get a feel for how much space you could actually take up to see what terrain you
will most likely want to throw.

The Polybian list probably works better in 25mm than 15mm as the game board is
much reduced in frontage - therefore you can be a push army. The list as I
built it can do well in 15mm also.

Any thoughts on all of this???

Todd K

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
Thanks Todd:

That list looks very interesting, and I have the lead to try it (or
something like it) out, once I paint up some more velites. My only
concern would be that there are a total of 14E of LMI, either Spanish
or Peltast, and wonder if I might be better off with a few less and
some more legions or velites instead.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Just a few thoughts - Here's my list on Polybian - ran them a few
years ago under a few different circumstances, but this is how I would
run them w/ the new lists.
>
> CinC 1E Reg A HC Jls,Sh + PA - 154
> Sub 2E Reg A/B HC Jls,Sh + P - 117
> 3x 2E Tarentines Reg C LC Jls,Sh - 42 ea - 126 total
> 2x 2E Triarii Reg B HI LTS,Sh - 66 ea - 132
> 8x 2E Princ/Hast Reg B HI HTW,Sh - 66 ea - 528
> 2E Elephants Ir D 2 w/ Jls
> 5x 2E Velites Reg C LI Jls,Sh - 26 ea - 130
> 2x 4E Spanish Scut Ir C (1E A) LMI HTW,Jls,Sh - 79 ea - 158
> 3x 2E Achaean Peltasts Reg C LMI LTS,Jls,Sh - 50 ea - 150
>
> total pts - 1596
> scouting - 26
>
> I love the 2E units. While they are not as tough as the 4E or 6E
variety they serve their purpose well and having many of them allowes
for multiple waves and flexibility in movement. The Elephants are
needed for unease and giving attack orders gives them a free charge.
Interdespered w/ the legions and the amount of LI, their free charge
should go off when you want it to. I would throw steep and rocky
hills, and marshes/woods to limit the board. You have enough loose
units to fill the terrain and enough close punch to fill the gaps in
between.
>
> my 2 cents here,
>
> Todd K
>






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Todd:

Those are all good points - very tough to disagree with essentially
any of it.

I like your point about spanish/moog foot being feared and originally
thought of as unbalanced, but now are not considered so frightening
(jeesh, I couldn't figure out how to save them from HC with JLS unless
I hid in the woods - seemed pretty ineffective to me as a main line unit).

I will also keep in mind your point about the peltasts being
reasonably effective in the main battle line if supported.

Another question I have though, is other than scouting points, what do
you see the role of the Tarantine LC to be?

If you get the terrain reasonably how you want it, how do you envision
the 2E Romans being setup in their line? With a certain number lined
up behind the front, or with them lined up across the board with the
velites screening in front?

What do you do with the triarii? Guard the baggage? Act in reserve for
enemy flank marches of calvary attacks? - which is how I envision that
might have been used historically.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Here are more thoughts/questions for you to consider.
>
> The Polybians have a problem in that they don't cover the needed
frontage to be a "push" type army. Therefore you must throw a fair
amount of heavy terrain to limit board space and be able to fight in
the gaps that the terrain has left. Assuming you get at least 2
decent terrain placements you will have the frontage to push in that
gap(s) w/ your 22 elements of punch (HI and Ele) I believe your old
list had only 12 or so elements of punch.
>
> Irony that when the spanish/moog foot came out w/ the HTW/Jls
combo people freaked out b/c game balance was upset, but they are no
longer the feared troops due to the other changes that have taken
place - list rules and a new doctrine for how to fight them.
>
> OK - w/ all that terrain on the board you have to be able to
either take the terrain, controlling it w/ superior troops, or be able
to delay in the terrain so that your main battle line isn't flanked
during the battle. You actually have both options due to the type of
loose/open foot you have. The spanish are best in the
woods/marsh/rocky hills where heavy cavalry isn't a concern. You can
control/dominate terrain w/ those 2 units and some reg LI support,
nevermind the peltasts who are also great in most terrain. You can
also delay w/ the LI - reg LI is a major pain in the arse for most
players to push out of a rough terrain piece. It will usually take
them multiple turns to kill them, unless they get lucky (you fail your
first counter, they charge and you roll a 2 to get caught). What is
great about the 2E units is that you actually cover MORE space than if
you are a bigger units. I know that the 2E units also have a major
problem that they can break so easily if you are
> unlucky.
>
> Think this one also. You are against a crafty veteran (insert
name here) who knows some things (he's scouted your list a little or
knows the Polybian list well enough) and he's also going to be
throwing terrain at you. Now you have a board covered w/ brush,
marsh, steep hills, and woods 6-8 terrains pieces. Now aren't you
glad you have the 14 elements of spanish and peltasts + LI to go into
this mess??? Your 2E HI units and elephants can then fill the gaps in
the terrain while the LI/LMI push in the rough terrain.
>
> Okay another scenario - you are facing said crafty veteran and YOU
think he's going to be throwing a lot of terrain to accomplish the
above sceen. So you throw opens and OOPS - so does he... now what?
Well, you do have all those lights to throw out there to slow life
down for him and the peltasts are not helpless in the open. They can
extend you battle line well enough IF they are kept supported. Unlike
the Spanish they are not AS afraid of HC/EHC. Most cavalry doesn't
want to chance it against a supported peltast unit (only a 1/3 chance
of a shake and bake vs. a 1/2 chance) The spanish could also function
(although not as well) as a support wave behind the HI and elephants.
You could extend your line fairly wide enough w/ the HI (and/or
elephants) leading the way and the peltasts/spanish/elephants as your
second wave. I'd lay out the lead to get a feel for how much space
you could actually take up to see what terrain you will most likely
want to throw.
>
> The Polybian list probably works better in 25mm than 15mm as the
game board is much reduced in frontage - therefore you can be a push
army. The list as I built it can do well in 15mm also.
>
> Any thoughts on all of this???
>
> Todd K
>
> Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
> Thanks Todd:
>
> That list looks very interesting, and I have the lead to try it (or
> something like it) out, once I paint up some more velites. My only
> concern would be that there are a total of 14E of LMI, either Spanish
> or Peltast, and wonder if I might be better off with a few less and
> some more legions or velites instead.
>

What take any Reg B Hastatii? Just to add up to down rolls in combat
and to make it easier to counter and pass wavers? Or why not take all
Reg C's and use the points for more troops?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Made a little mistake in my previous list. In order to meet the
reg B upgrades w/o going over the 1/2 here's the changes:
>
> 1 2E unit of Hastatii (sp?) goes to reg C (saves 8 pts)
> add 2E of Velites to a unit of 2E (costs 16 pts)
> you had 4 pts to play with so now you are only over 4 pts - 1604 +
1 scouting pt.
>
> now there are 14 elements of reg C and 14 elements of Reg B.
>
> Todd K
>

[joncleaves]

I take all my velites as the B's for countering and my H/P/T as the C's

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Celella <pcelella@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:11:41 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Polybians Romans this weekend


What take any Reg B Hastatii? Just to add up to down rolls in combat
and to make it easier to counter and pass wavers? Or why not take all
Reg C's and use the points for more troops?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Made a little mistake in my previous list. In order to meet the
reg B upgrades w/o going over the 1/2 here's the changes:
>
> 1 2E unit of Hastatii (sp?) goes to reg C (saves 8 pts)
> add 2E of Velites to a unit of 2E (costs 16 pts)
> you had 4 pts to play with so now you are only over 4 pts - 1604 +
1 scouting pt.
>
> now there are 14 elements of reg C and 14 elements of Reg B.
>
> Todd K
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Peter,

I think the Tarentine LC can take up a whole flank. With 3 units I could hold
off almost anything w/ the exception of massed bowfire and massed LC. If I felt
I need to add help for them to hold off a flank against either of the two above
the Triarii could help or a peltast unit.

I envisioned running the HI in roughly 3 "groups".

A A
A

sort of formation. The unit in the rear supports the other two and can either
come through the gap between them or replace either of them in combat. I think
the Triarii could do this from the rear or protect the flank. You have a total
of 10 of these units.

As to Jon's thoughts w/ the morale. I'm a big believer in B troops. It is a
personal choice. Many - Chris Damour included, might want them C's or even
better as D's to save cost. I think the 8 pts per unit are entirely worth it.
I've had many times where a unit gets busted and screams through the entire
army. B's are better at surviving the whole mess. While my "B" line has
collapsed from 1's on the morale chain - many more times they've passed and I'm
able to counter-attack. I don't personally think the LI as B's are better than
the main line as B's. Once again personal choice. A lot of times the LI will
be getting out of the way and passing behind the main battle line. I want the
core of my army being able to pass the waiver tests. I'd love if all of them
could be B's, but only 1/2 of them can be.

I would want the flanks to have the terrain - while a hill or wood is
interesting in the middle it's unlikely. I would place the terrain on the
center line or slightly beyond it and push through the gap. Place out the
terrain and army on a 6x4 and a 3x5 to see the differences w/ 25mm and 15mm.
Armies in theory don't work as well as in practice. See what space you need and
how to place the terrain.

I actually have about 4 free hours tomorrow due to my wife and kids at
playgroup and I'll be home. I'm going to paint like mad to see how much of the
Polybians I can finish in that time. They are already painted/primed black and
most are on popsicle sticks. I'll let you know if interested.

Any other thoughts???


Todd K

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
Todd:

Those are all good points - very tough to disagree with essentially
any of it.

I like your point about spanish/moog foot being feared and originally
thought of as unbalanced, but now are not considered so frightening
(jeesh, I couldn't figure out how to save them from HC with JLS unless
I hid in the woods - seemed pretty ineffective to me as a main line unit).

I will also keep in mind your point about the peltasts being
reasonably effective in the main battle line if supported.

Another question I have though, is other than scouting points, what do
you see the role of the Tarantine LC to be?

If you get the terrain reasonably how you want it, how do you envision
the 2E Romans being setup in their line? With a certain number lined
up behind the front, or with them lined up across the board with the
velites screening in front?

What do you do with the triarii? Guard the baggage? Act in reserve for
enemy flank marches of calvary attacks? - which is how I envision that
might have been used historically.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Here are more thoughts/questions for you to consider.
>
> The Polybians have a problem in that they don't cover the needed
frontage to be a "push" type army. Therefore you must throw a fair
amount of heavy terrain to limit board space and be able to fight in
the gaps that the terrain has left. Assuming you get at least 2
decent terrain placements you will have the frontage to push in that
gap(s) w/ your 22 elements of punch (HI and Ele) I believe your old
list had only 12 or so elements of punch.
>
> Irony that when the spanish/moog foot came out w/ the HTW/Jls
combo people freaked out b/c game balance was upset, but they are no
longer the feared troops due to the other changes that have taken
place - list rules and a new doctrine for how to fight them.
>
> OK - w/ all that terrain on the board you have to be able to
either take the terrain, controlling it w/ superior troops, or be able
to delay in the terrain so that your main battle line isn't flanked
during the battle. You actually have both options due to the type of
loose/open foot you have. The spanish are best in the
woods/marsh/rocky hills where heavy cavalry isn't a concern. You can
control/dominate terrain w/ those 2 units and some reg LI support,
nevermind the peltasts who are also great in most terrain. You can
also delay w/ the LI - reg LI is a major pain in the arse for most
players to push out of a rough terrain piece. It will usually take
them multiple turns to kill them, unless they get lucky (you fail your
first counter, they charge and you roll a 2 to get caught). What is
great about the 2E units is that you actually cover MORE space than if
you are a bigger units. I know that the 2E units also have a major
problem that they can break so easily if you are
> unlucky.
>
> Think this one also. You are against a crafty veteran (insert
name here) who knows some things (he's scouted your list a little or
knows the Polybian list well enough) and he's also going to be
throwing terrain at you. Now you have a board covered w/ brush,
marsh, steep hills, and woods 6-8 terrains pieces. Now aren't you
glad you have the 14 elements of spanish and peltasts + LI to go into
this mess??? Your 2E HI units and elephants can then fill the gaps in
the terrain while the LI/LMI push in the rough terrain.
>
> Okay another scenario - you are facing said crafty veteran and YOU
think he's going to be throwing a lot of terrain to accomplish the
above sceen. So you throw opens and OOPS - so does he... now what?
Well, you do have all those lights to throw out there to slow life
down for him and the peltasts are not helpless in the open. They can
extend you battle line well enough IF they are kept supported. Unlike
the Spanish they are not AS afraid of HC/EHC. Most cavalry doesn't
want to chance it against a supported peltast unit (only a 1/3 chance
of a shake and bake vs. a 1/2 chance) The spanish could also function
(although not as well) as a support wave behind the HI and elephants.
You could extend your line fairly wide enough w/ the HI (and/or
elephants) leading the way and the peltasts/spanish/elephants as your
second wave. I'd lay out the lead to get a feel for how much space
you could actually take up to see what terrain you will most likely
want to throw.
>
> The Polybian list probably works better in 25mm than 15mm as the
game board is much reduced in frontage - therefore you can be a push
army. The list as I built it can do well in 15mm also.
>
> Any thoughts on all of this???
>
> Todd K
>
> Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
> Thanks Todd:
>
> That list looks very interesting, and I have the lead to try it (or
> something like it) out, once I paint up some more velites. My only
> concern would be that there are a total of 14E of LMI, either Spanish
> or Peltast, and wonder if I might be better off with a few less and
> some more legions or velites instead.
>







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---------------------------------
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Except that your Triarii must be B's, right?


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> I take all my velites as the B's for countering and my H/P/T as the C's
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Celella <pcelella@...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:11:41 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Polybians Romans this weekend
>
>
> What take any Reg B Hastatii? Just to add up to down rolls in combat
> and to make it easier to counter and pass wavers? Or why not take all
> Reg C's and use the points for more troops?
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@> wrote:
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > Made a little mistake in my previous list. In order to meet the
> reg B upgrades w/o going over the 1/2 here's the changes:
> >
> > 1 2E unit of Hastatii (sp?) goes to reg C (saves 8 pts)
> > add 2E of Velites to a unit of 2E (costs 16 pts)
> > you had 4 pts to play with so now you are only over 4 pts - 1604 +
> 1 scouting pt.
> >
> > now there are 14 elements of reg C and 14 elements of Reg B.
> >
> > Todd K
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Bill Chriss]

> I take all my velites as the B's for countering and my H/P/T as the C's
>
> -----Original Message-----


For what it is worth, this is what I would do as well.

-Greek

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> I think the Tarentine LC can take up a whole flank. With 3 units
I could hold off almost anything w/ the exception of massed bowfire
and massed LC. If I felt I need to add help for them to hold off a
flank against either of the two above the Triarii could help or a
peltast unit.
>

I thought that might be what you would say. Would there ever be a
reason to use some LC instead to drive off your opponents LI screen?
In my game against the Franks at Bill's, my opponent got off a row of
warband impetuous charges. In my mind this happened because my velites
(granted only 2-2E units) couldn't drive off his LI JLS screen of 6 or
7 elements in one unit. If I had driven off his LI, say with my LC (or
more velites, I guess), then I could have skirmished in front of his
warbands hoping to tire them before our main battle lines clashed. Is
this a reasonable approach?

> I envisioned running the HI in roughly 3 "groups".
>
> A A
> A
>
> sort of formation. The unit in the rear supports the other two
and can either come through the gap between them or replace either of
them in combat. I think the Triarii could do this from the rear or
protect the flank. You have a total of 10 of these units.
>

Yes, that does make a great deal of sense - and it doesn't really cut
down your frontage either.

> As to Jon's thoughts w/ the morale. I'm a big believer in B
troops. It is a personal choice. Many - Chris Damour included, might
want them C's or even better as D's to save cost. I think the 8 pts
per unit are entirely worth it. I've had many times where a unit gets
busted and screams through the entire army. B's are better at
surviving the whole mess. While my "B" line has collapsed from 1's on
the morale chain - many more times they've passed and I'm able to
counter-attack. I don't personally think the LI as B's are better
than the main line as B's. Once again personal choice. A lot of
times the LI will be getting out of the way and passing behind the
main battle line. I want the core of my army being able to pass the
waiver tests. I'd love if all of them could be B's, but only 1/2 of
them can be.
>

This whole B's for velites or main line units is very interesting, and
it isn't obvious which is best. I guess it mainly depends on style,
and I should try it both ways. Maybe there's a historical precedent
for using B's as velites - weren't they the younger troops,
desperately hoping to get noticed for their courage in man to man,
solitary fights? Wouldn't do for them to run at the slightest change
in fortune. And the Hastati and Principes were more veteran soldiers,
less anxious to take crazy chances, and looking to fight shoulder to
shoulder with, and supported by their comrades.

> I would want the flanks to have the terrain - while a hill or wood
is interesting in the middle it's unlikely. I would place the terrain
on the center line or slightly beyond it and push through the gap.
Place out the terrain and army on a 6x4 and a 3x5 to see the
differences w/ 25mm and 15mm. Armies in theory don't work as well as
in practice. See what space you need and how to place the terrain.
>


Why do you say 6x4 and 3x5? Do you mean 6x4 and 5x8, depending on scale?

> I actually have about 4 free hours tomorrow due to my wife and
kids at playgroup and I'll be home. I'm going to paint like mad to
see how much of the Polybians I can finish in that time. They are
already painted/primed black and most are on popsicle sticks. I'll
let you know if interested.
>

I didn't know you were working on a new Polybian army! I thought that
you were speaking from experience only of an army you used to run.
What do you mean by interested? In a game? In the figures?

Thanks again for the help

[John Garlic]

Hi Todd,

You mention 3 x 5, I assume this is table size. Wouldn't a 5 x 4 be equivalent
to 25mm when running 15mm. Just asking since I have been testing ideas for a
25mm army using my 15s.

John Garlic

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Polybians Romans this weekend


I would want the flanks to have the terrain - while a hill or wood is
interesting in the middle it's unlikely. I would place the terrain on the
center line or slightly beyond it and push through the gap. Place out the
terrain and army on a 6x4 and a 3x5 to see the differences w/ 25mm and 15mm.
Armies in theory don't work as well as in practice. See what space you need and
how to place the terrain.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/22/2006 06:48:04 Central Standard Time,
hailkaeser@... writes:

John,

3x5 in 15mm is the correct size simulation in 25mm that plays on a 5x8.

That's why there is such a big difference in how the two scales run. On a
2x5 table you are cutting off 9 square feet of table space.

25's can push w/ 1600 pts and you see a LOT more close foot armies. 15mm is
very difficult to run close foot w/o bow.

I know you probably know all of this but maybe everyone else doesn't. :-)

Todd K>>
[
Time for my standard yearly caveat that this is 100% player choice and not
something we dictate. Year after year, the majority of players choose this
format for NASAMW tourneys. And no matter how often I say that the players can
choose any table size for any scale they like, this is what we come back to.

Yearly caveat off!
Jon




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

John,

3x5 in 15mm is the correct size simulation in 25mm that plays on a 5x8.

That's why there is such a big difference in how the two scales run. On a 2x5
table you are cutting off 9 square feet of table space.

25's can push w/ 1600 pts and you see a LOT more close foot armies. 15mm is
very difficult to run close foot w/o bow.

I know you probably know all of this but maybe everyone else doesn't. :-)

Todd K

jmgarlic@... wrote:
Hi Todd,

You mention 3 x 5, I assume this is table size. Wouldn't a 5 x 4 be equivalent
to 25mm when running 15mm. Just asking since I have been testing ideas for a
25mm army using my 15s.

John Garlic

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Polybians Romans this weekend


I would want the flanks to have the terrain - while a hill or wood is
interesting in the middle it's unlikely. I would place the terrain on the
center line or slightly beyond it and push through the gap. Place out the
terrain and army on a 6x4 and a 3x5 to see the differences w/ 25mm and 15mm.
Armies in theory don't work as well as in practice. See what space you need and
how to place the terrain.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Todd Kaeser]

Yes - the LC should drive off a weaker LI screen if possible. Remember that w/
commands going into retirement killing LI can be a big help nearing the end of a
battle.

I have used Polybian in 15mm in the past and really liked them. I used an
army that I had painted in a tournament that was the prize for the winner - make
any sense??? (New baby sleep deprivation) . Dan Woyke won the army so I don't
currently have one. I have started painting the HI a few years ago but went off
task. All this talk and an opportunity to paint for 3-4 hours today gave me an
itch.

I'm in the lower Boston Area and would have attended Bill Low's had there not
been a new baby in the house. In the future we'll have to cross swords on the
table and talk shop.

Todd

Peter Celella <pcelella@...> wrote:
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> I think the Tarentine LC can take up a whole flank. With 3 units
I could hold off almost anything w/ the exception of massed bowfire
and massed LC. If I felt I need to add help for them to hold off a
flank against either of the two above the Triarii could help or a
peltast unit.
>

I thought that might be what you would say. Would there ever be a
reason to use some LC instead to drive off your opponents LI screen?
In my game against the Franks at Bill's, my opponent got off a row of
warband impetuous charges. In my mind this happened because my velites
(granted only 2-2E units) couldn't drive off his LI JLS screen of 6 or
7 elements in one unit. If I had driven off his LI, say with my LC (or
more velites, I guess), then I could have skirmished in front of his
warbands hoping to tire them before our main battle lines clashed. Is
this a reasonable approach?

> I envisioned running the HI in roughly 3 "groups".
>
> A A
> A
>
> sort of formation. The unit in the rear supports the other two
and can either come through the gap between them or replace either of
them in combat. I think the Triarii could do this from the rear or
protect the flank. You have a total of 10 of these units.
>

Yes, that does make a great deal of sense - and it doesn't really cut
down your frontage either.

> As to Jon's thoughts w/ the morale. I'm a big believer in B
troops. It is a personal choice. Many - Chris Damour included, might
want them C's or even better as D's to save cost. I think the 8 pts
per unit are entirely worth it. I've had many times where a unit gets
busted and screams through the entire army. B's are better at
surviving the whole mess. While my "B" line has collapsed from 1's on
the morale chain - many more times they've passed and I'm able to
counter-attack. I don't personally think the LI as B's are better
than the main line as B's. Once again personal choice. A lot of
times the LI will be getting out of the way and passing behind the
main battle line. I want the core of my army being able to pass the
waiver tests. I'd love if all of them could be B's, but only 1/2 of
them can be.
>

This whole B's for velites or main line units is very interesting, and
it isn't obvious which is best. I guess it mainly depends on style,
and I should try it both ways. Maybe there's a historical precedent
for using B's as velites - weren't they the younger troops,
desperately hoping to get noticed for their courage in man to man,
solitary fights? Wouldn't do for them to run at the slightest change
in fortune. And the Hastati and Principes were more veteran soldiers,
less anxious to take crazy chances, and looking to fight shoulder to
shoulder with, and supported by their comrades.

> I would want the flanks to have the terrain - while a hill or wood
is interesting in the middle it's unlikely. I would place the terrain
on the center line or slightly beyond it and push through the gap.
Place out the terrain and army on a 6x4 and a 3x5 to see the
differences w/ 25mm and 15mm. Armies in theory don't work as well as
in practice. See what space you need and how to place the terrain.
>


Why do you say 6x4 and 3x5? Do you mean 6x4 and 5x8, depending on scale?

> I actually have about 4 free hours tomorrow due to my wife and
kids at playgroup and I'll be home. I'm going to paint like mad to
see how much of the Polybians I can finish in that time. They are
already painted/primed black and most are on popsicle sticks. I'll
let you know if interested.
>

I didn't know you were working on a new Polybian army! I thought that
you were speaking from experience only of an army you used to run.
What do you mean by interested? In a game? In the figures?

Thanks again for the help






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Todd Kaeser <hailkaeser@...> wrote:
>
> Yes - the LC should drive off a weaker LI screen if possible.
Remember that w/ commands going into retirement killing LI can be a
big help nearing the end of a battle.
>

Yes, just as I thought. Now I have to figure out how to safely get LC
out in front of the HI to drive off LI, and then once the task is
done, pull them back out of harm's way.

> I have used Polybian in 15mm in the past and really liked them. I
used an army that I had painted in a tournament that was the prize for
the winner - make any sense??? (New baby sleep deprivation) . Dan
Woyke won the army so I don't currently have one. I have started
painting the HI a few years ago but went off task. All this talk and
an opportunity to paint for 3-4 hours today gave me an itch.
>

New baby sleep deprivation! That brings back memories. Is this your
first? With mine, I was shocked with the adjustment to a new
perception of what a large amount of sleep is. Six hours becomes
glorious. Kids are big reason I got out of gaming for quite a few
years. I used to board game with occasional miniatures quite a bit in
my youth, but lost time for most of it once I started my career and
the kids came. Now that the my career is established and the kids got
older, I found time to devote to hobbies once again, and that's when I
decided to take up Warrior.

Good luck with the little one - nothing else will bring you as much joy.

> I'm in the lower Boston Area and would have attended Bill Low's
had there not been a new baby in the house. In the future we'll have
to cross swords on the table and talk shop.
>

I'm sure we'll get a chance, and I'll be looking forward to it.

[John Garlic]

Hi Jon,

This wasn't an attempt to resurrect a previously deceased equine mammal. I
actually managed to make cut for NICT and am trying to prep for differences as
well as finalize my first 25mm lead. I do apologize if you thought that was
intent. I just don't wanna drop the cash and change my mind. As an educator I
plan to have lotsa good painting time over Spring Break and in summer :-)

John Garlic

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:57:49 EST
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Polybians Romans this weekend

Time for my standard yearly caveat that this is 100% player choice and not
something we dictate. Year after year, the majority of players choose this
format for NASAMW tourneys. And no matter how often I say that the players can

choose any table size for any scale they like, this is what we come back to.

Yearly caveat off!
Jon


Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]