Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Garlic]

Hi All,

I have never played elephants, and have only encountered them
(unsuccessfully) twice. I have been looking at some lists that have elephants
and have some
questions on list building and employment.

1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?

2. What size units seem to be the most effective?

3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?

4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element for an army?

5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?

Just trying to stir up the water a bit and get a few ideas.

Thanks,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Garlic]

Thanks for the feedback Ewan. I was looking at three units of three. I've
always liked detachments, but still haven't mastered their use. I really
hadn't thought of approaching in a column of three, but that would seem to be a
really good way to gain mass on a specific area.

John

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:55:44 PM Central Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:
> 1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?

Generally - and there are huge style Qs to almost all of this - I take 2
JLS crew if available, then any others as B.

> 2. What size units seem to be the most effective?

I like 3s; approaching in column gets max expansion, more resilient to
bowfire.

> 3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?

Oh, yes. One of Warrior's great freebies.

> 4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element for an
army?

Seleucids: 8-10. Sassanids: 6, in combo with SHC. Khmer: probably 12 or
so. Varies, but if the sole shock arm then at least 8.

> 5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?

Neither. This is where you get a lot of argument, but I dislike the
limitations of base-mounted LI, have rarely found myself unable to avoid
bowfire to need the extra figures for CPF, and hence avoid the expense.
Detachments can work but take great care, require much practice, and again
have significant limitations; I think independent LI units are better.

Even more than usual, this is all opinion.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 jmgarlic@... wrote:
> 1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?

Generally - and there are huge style Qs to almost all of this - I take 2
JLS crew if available, then any others as B.

> 2. What size units seem to be the most effective?

I like 3s; approaching in column gets max expansion, more resilient to
bowfire.

> 3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?

Oh, yes. One of Warrior's great freebies.

> 4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element for an army?

Seleucids: 8-10. Sassanids: 6, in combo with SHC. Khmer: probably 12 or
so. Varies, but if the sole shock arm then at least 8.

> 5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?

Neither. This is where you get a lot of argument, but I dislike the
limitations of base-mounted LI, have rarely found myself unable to avoid
bowfire to need the extra figures for CPF, and hence avoid the expense.
Detachments can work but take great care, require much practice, and again
have significant limitations; I think independent LI units are better.

Even more than usual, this is all opinion.

I agree with everything stated below by Ewan in 1-4, but vary slightly on
the detachment issue in #5. Having a separate detachment that often stays
as a 2nd or deeper rank adds to unit size to avoid the dreaded halt or
waiver response to 2CPF from missile fire.



Also, LI B in the 2nd rank can fire if currently attached, providing some
concentrated fire with JLS or B/LB crew from the elephants. I'm still not
thrilled about elephants with longbow or bow due to prompting requirements,
but they can be successful if carefully played.



I like the JLS and Pike (causing a -1 in HTH) combination (see Alexander
Imperial), but the Indian Elephants with all JLS or JLS/LB combination rated
as Irr B are more versatile



I also use independent LI units in addition to the detachments. The
detachments in no way attempt to replace the role of the LI units. The
detachments can be a cheap way to have more units



Fred Stratton



-----Original Message-----
From: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of ewan.mcnay@...
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 8:53 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Pondering Pachyderms



On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 jmgarlic@... wrote:

> 1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?



Generally - and there are huge style Qs to almost all of this - I take 2

JLS crew if available, then any others as B.



> 2. What size units seem to be the most effective?



I like 3s; approaching in column gets max expansion, more resilient to

bowfire.



> 3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?



Oh, yes. One of Warrior's great freebies.



> 4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element for an
army?



Seleucids: 8-10. Sassanids: 6, in combo with SHC. Khmer: probably 12 or

so. Varies, but if the sole shock arm then at least 8.



> 5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?



Neither. This is where you get a lot of argument, but I dislike the

limitations of base-mounted LI, have rarely found myself unable to avoid

bowfire to need the extra figures for CPF, and hence avoid the expense.

Detachments can work but take great care, require much practice, and again

have significant limitations; I think independent LI units are better.



Even more than usual, this is all opinion.











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greeitngs John,
Ah the joys of Oliphants er Elephants. I tend to use mine in units of
3 armed with B over JLS, but having that pike is nice. When I use
runners I use them as LI screens. I cant justify the extra cost for
the extra CPF though if buying then for a 2 EL unit it might make
sense. Before CW came out I used to use Indian ally general in an El,
alas he is no more in the Bactrian list. I will say now that I only
get 8 El total I may give 2 El units a try with the figs on the base.
Terry Dix

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, jmgarlic@a... wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have never played elephants, and have only encountered them
> (unsuccessfully) twice. I have been looking at some lists that have
elephants and have some
> questions on list building and employment.
>
> 1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?
>
> 2. What size units seem to be the most effective?
>
> 3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?
>
> 4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element
for an army?
>
> 5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?
>
> Just trying to stir up the water a bit and get a few ideas.
>
> Thanks,
> John Garlic
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Hi Johnny,

I suggest you take a look at the Khmer list if you wish to play elephants.
There are a number of regular lights which allow you to have enough scouting and
maneuver for an effective force. I think it would really mess with those Knight
heavy Texans in San Antonio! But watch out for Dave Beeson as I believe he is a
Nipponphile and most likely is building Feudal Japs, a scary list for knights
and elephants both!!!

kelly

jmgarlic@... wrote:
Hi All,

I have never played elephants, and have only encountered them
(unsuccessfully) twice. I have been looking at some lists that have elephants
and have some
questions on list building and employment.

1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?

2. What size units seem to be the most effective?

3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?

4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element for an army?

5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?

Just trying to stir up the water a bit and get a few ideas.

Thanks,
John Garlic


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Chriss]

> Hi Johnny,
>
> I suggest you take a look at the Khmer list if you wish to play
> elephants. There are a number of regular lights which allow you to
> have enough scouting and maneuver for an effective force. I think it
> would really mess with those Knight heavy Texans in San Antonio! But
> watch out for Dave Beeson as I believe he is a Nipponphile and most
> likely is building Feudal Japs, a scary list for knights and
> elephants both!!!
>
> kelly


Humor me, Kelly. Why are Japanese death to Elephants and Knights, being
loose order infantry?


Greek

[Mark Stone]

jmgarlic@... wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> I have never played elephants, and have only encountered them
> (unsuccessfully) twice. I have been looking at some lists that have elephants
> and have some
> questions on list building and employment.

First of all I have limited playing experience running elephants. I've done it a
couple of times, but I'm much more of a knight/cav player. I have a lot of
experience facing elephants, and spend way too much time thinking about how to
clobber elephants. But overall, I'd defer to Ewan who has already posted
eloquently in repsonse to these questions. But, for a second opinion, here
goes:

>
> 1. When given a choice, is it better to have the B or JLS?
>

You want 2 crew with JLS, or -- better -- one with JLS and one with P. Bow is a
good choice for additional crew but be careful as this will make you "shooters
directly to front" and you may not want your elephants to be that high a
shooting priority. The exception to all of this, of course, is the Burmese
elephants, who are meant to be a shooting machine.

>
> 2. What size units seem to be the most effective?
>

If you have limited experience playing elephants, you'll probably want them in 3
model units to make them harder to shoot up (the big elephant vulnerability). As
you get better, you'll probably want them in 2 model units (to spread their
effect further).

>
> 3. Do you usually buy your generals as elephant mounted?
>

Yes. Units containing subgenerals on elephants are actually cheaper than same
size units containing no generals. Not that there's a problem with the point
system or anything....

>
> 4. How many elephants do people usually use as the shock element for an army?
>

Six elephants makes an army an "elephant army". Eight to ten is probably a
better number to have to really have impact.

>
> 5. Which is the better choice runners on bases or as a detachment?
>

Avoid detachments. Runners on the base does much to solve elephants'
vulnerability to shooting, but hampers elephants by preventing them from
rolling long in pursuits (annoying, but minor) and taking initiative away from
them as they now move in the foot rather than mounted phase of approaches (this
is a big deal). I like elephants with runners on base, and think this is much
under utilized. I'm in the minority however, and a survey of past NICT
champions (a group that does _not_ include me) would probably vote for no
runners on the base.


-Mark Stone