Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/14/2004 2:52:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
hrisikos@... writes:

>Jon:
>
>  There is a rules question at the end of this battle report that you
>probably missed. What are your thoughts?>>

That is not a rules question...lol Greek, I do need them to come to me labeled
as such and with as clear a description of what is going on as possible if you
use an example. A diagram is ALWAYS best.
I may or may not read all the way through a battle report or other long mail -
it is very time dependent. I may also get a rules question 'wrong' if my
'picture' of what happened is different than the facts.


>>Moral: just because your unit charges and hits an enemy charger, blocking
>it from its original target, doesn't necessarily mean the target is now
>free to execute his charge on a fourth unit. His charge will still be
>preempted if the enemy's charge is not preempted, but merely obstructed by
>your other unit "moving into its charge path."
>
>Did we play this right?>>

It does 'seem' so, but that is based on me understanding the situation from your
text description. It is possible to have a charge canceled by someone who does
not actually reach you after all is said and done and I didn't see anything
glaringly wrong in your description.

I would prefer, however, that this is not the way rules questions of me get
asked. Thanks!

Jon

[Bill Chriss]

Jon:

There is a rules question at the end of this battle report that you
probably missed. What are your thoughts?

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
Here's the battle report from friday's Hellenistic Greeks v.
Carthaginians with Dave Beeson.

First, Dave e-mailed that drop me from the list message because he's
changing e-mail addresses/accounts, not for any other mysterious reason.
He was getting double e-mails. Not to worry, Jon.

Dave's Carthaginians had a couple of 5-6 base units of nasty Celtiberian
types w/ HTW, JLS, Sh, the usual Poeni spearmen in small 4E units, and
several 2E reg Spanish/Punic LMI, JLS, Sh. He had one 2E unit of El and
one 2E unit of boltshooters drawn by oxen. These were pretty evenly
divided among three commands, with the Art and El in the center. Each
command's Gen had an extra element of HC, JLS, Sh as bodygd, and the two
flank commands had a unit of LC each and a couple of units of trashy LI.
That's all I remember. Dave had 3 open spaces and a hill, which went in
his right rear.

I rolled minor water feature on my left and marsh just under it and
extending out towards the midline of the table left to right, right at
table centerline. I also put a brush in his forward zone on my right
flank, where the fightig figured to be, since my entiore left flank was
protected by the river.

Skipping directly to the chase, I learned (relearned) an important lesson
that cost me the game. On bound 3 or 4, out on my right flank, one of my
thureophoroi were poised to strike Dave's HC general with bdygd that were
tangled up with another LMI unit he charged that passed their waver
previous turn. The problem was that Dave had an LC unit within range to
charge my poised thureophoroi in the flank, cancelling their charge. I
also had an LC unit in reserve that flew in at his LC to prevent them
contacting the Thureos.

Problem was that my LC did thid by moving into his LC's charge path...They
were positioned frontally so no flank charge was possible. Result: My LC
hit his LC short of the Thureos and saved them from being hit in the
flank, but the thureos STILL COULDN"T CHarge the Carthaginian HC because
my LC did not CANCEL or PREEMPT his LC's charge upon them. My LC fights
his LC (draw). His now overlapping HC (My preempted thureos couldn't
charge into his open element frontage) break my LMI, while the well setup
thureos just sit and watch. The LC wavers for the rout nearby, and then
the entire flank collapses as Dave finds additional targets of opportunity
in the gaps now in my line.


Moral: just because your unit charges and hits an enemy charger, blocking
it from its original target, doesn't necessarily mean the target is now
free to execute his charge on a fourth unit. His charge will still be
preempted if the enemy's charge is not preempted, but merely obstructed by
your other unit "moving into its charge path."

Did we play this right?


Greek

[joncleaves]

>
> When I have a little more time, I'll try to diagram it for
>you just to be sure.>>

That would be good.

JSC

[Bill Chriss]

>
> That is not a rules question...lol Greek, I do need them to come to me
> labeled as such and with as clear a description of what is going on as
> possible if you use an example. A diagram is ALWAYS best.
> I may or may not read all the way through a battle report or other long
> mail - it is very time dependent. I may also get a rules question
> 'wrong' if my 'picture' of what happened is different than the facts.


I understand. Excuse, please. It was an afterthought to ask, since I just
finished describing my own pummeling/stupidity.


>It is possible to have a charge canceled by someone who does not actually
>reach you after all is said and done (snip)


Indeed. You have quickly found the crux of my dilemma,...and answered it.






> I would prefer, however, that this is not the way rules questions of me
> get asked. Thanks!
>
> Jon
>


Roger, wilco. When I have a little more time, I'll try to diagram it for
you just to be sure.




Greek

[Bill Chriss]

>
> Roger, wilco. When I have a little more time, I'll try to diagram it for
> you just to be sure.
>
>
>
>
> Greek
>

See diagrams and questions #1 and #2 below:

Legend= N
W E
S


Units:

BBBBBB(facing south)




(facing south)
AAAA XX YYYY(facing north)
AAAA XX
XX
(facing west)

Description/question #1: Units A and B are Carthaginian. Units X and Y
are Greek enemy. A does nothing. X declares a charge on A's flank. B
declares a charge on X's flank. Y declares a charge against B (frontally),
and movement is such that Y and B make contact before B can strike X.
Query:
Although not contacted, does X just sit there and have its charge canceled
by B?

Answer:


Description/Question #2: AS I understand our previous correspondence, if Y
was a non-charging LI unit and covered X like so:


BBBBBB


YYYY

AAAA XX
AAAA XX
XX

Then X's charge would not be canceled by B unless and until Y evades out
of the way, the principle being that B's charge cannot count as declared
on X by assuming that Y will move out of the way. If Y does evade such
that X could conceivably be contacted, then X's charge is preempted
because B's charge would count as declared on him. Correct?


Answer:


Greek

[joncleaves]

>Legend=   N
>       W     E
>          S
>
>
>Units:
>
>                BBBBBB(facing south)
>
>
>
>
>(facing south)
>      AAAA      XX      YYYY(facing north)
>      AAAA      XX
>                XX
>                (facing west)
>
>Description/question #1:  Units A and B are Carthaginian. Units X and Y
>are Greek enemy. A does nothing. X declares a charge on A's flank. B
>declares a charge on X's flank. Y declares a charge against B (frontally),
>and movement is such that Y and B make contact before B can strike X.
>Query:
>Although not contacted, does X just sit there and have its charge canceled
>by B?>>

Yes. Nothing stops B's legal declaration on X. It might be due to distance
that B ends up hitting Y first and is unable to make contact, evn through
echeloning, with X. But X's men do not know that...lol

>
>
>Description/Question #2: AS I understand our previous correspondence, if Y
>was a non-charging LI unit and covered X like so:
>
>
>             BBBBBB
>
>
>              YYYY
>
>     AAAA       XX
>     AAAA       XX
>                XX
>
>Then X's charge would not be canceled by B unless and until Y evades out
>of the way, the principle being that B's charge cannot count as declared
>on X by assuming that Y will move out of the way. If Y does evade such
>that X could conceivably be contacted, then X's charge is preempted
>because B's charge would count as declared on him. Correct?>>

The use of the word prempted is technically incorrect. X's charge is NOT
cancelled in this case. No assumption about Y can be made when declarations are
made - it is where it is at that point. B can't assume it will evade. It may
very well happen that B hits X but X still hits A.

Jon