Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Phil Gardocki]

4 Horsemen,
I disagree with the concept that a unit has to roll a distance, and if
it does not travel far enough, than a burst though is not allowed.
I have two problems with this rule. The first is that it changes the
game depending on the scale you are playing with, and the other is it has
an unrealistic effect.
While it is acknowledged that there are some game play differences
with the scale, they are a matter of scope, do not change the tactical
decisions. But the burst though rule is different because the depth of a
cavalry stand in 25mm is equal to 40 paces, where in 15mm it is not. And
because of this, in a 25mm battle, units will burst through when the same
combat in 15mm will not.
Examples.
2 elements deep of Cavalry vs. 2 elements deep close order foot.
The Cavalry does 3-1, but not 1 cpf and elects to burst through. Roll D5
for distance. In 15mm, the depth of the two formations is 90mm. When the
15mm cavalry rolls 40 paces short, and moves 76mm, and cannot burst
through. In 25mm, the depth of the two formations is 120mm. If the
cavalry rolls short, it still bursts through.
2 elements deep of Cavalry vs. 3 elements deep close order foot.
The Cavalry does 3-1, but not 1 cpf and elects to burst through. Roll D5
for distance. In 15mm, the depth of the two formations is 105mm. When
the 15mm cavalry must roll 80 paces long to get the distance to burst
though. In 25mm, the depth of the two formations is 140mm. The cavalry
bursts though unless it rolls 40paces short.
2 elements deep of close order foot vs. 2 elements deep close
order foot once again after combat results is 3-1, but not 1 cpf. In 15mm
the total depth is 60mm the close order foot cannot clear the formation, so
cannot burst through. In 25 mm the depth of the two formations is 80mm.
Making it possible on a 3+ on the distance die to burst through.
2 elements deep of close order foot vs. 2 elements deep loose
order foot once again after combat results is 3-1, but not 1 cpf, in favor
of the loose order foot.
In 15mm the total depth is 70mm. In 25 mm the depth of the two formations
is 100mm. In this case, the loose order foot can clear the formations, so
it can burst through. Which brings up my second point. Loose order foot
has a better chance of bursting through than close order foot, which to my
mind is not realistic.
If you wanted a mechanism to protect a unit with depth from a burst
through, why not change the combat requirements? 3-1 bursts through 1
element, 4-1 2 elements, 5-1 3 elements ect?.
For these two reasons, I am asking you to reconsider the current burst
through rule.
Phil



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

<<> 4 Horsemen,
> I disagree with the concept that a unit has to roll a distance, and if
> it does not travel far enough, than a burst though is not allowed.>>


Ok, let's chew this elephant one piece at a time. After having read your
post about five times through, I *believe* you are talking about
break-through moves. Note that they are different than burst throughs which
is something that occurs during some rout moves (6.32).

Given that we are talking about break-throughs the relevant rules are 6.35
and 11.223.

> << While it is acknowledged that there are some game play
> differences
> with the scale, they are a matter of scope, do not change the tactical
> decisions. But the burst though rule is different because the depth of a
> cavalry stand in 25mm is equal to 40 paces, where in 15mm it is not. And
> because of this, in a 25mm battle, units will burst through when the same
> combat in 15mm will not.>>


Maybe, let's see....

> << Examples.
> 2 elements deep of Cavalry vs. 2 elements deep close order foot.
> The Cavalry does 3-1, but not 1 cpf and elects to burst through. Roll D5
> for distance. In 15mm, the depth of the two formations is 90mm. When the
> 15mm cavalry rolls 40 paces short, and moves 76mm, and cannot burst
> through. In 25mm, the depth of the two formations is 120mm. If the
> cavalry rolls short, it still bursts through.>>


This is incorrect and seems to be so from an incorrect reading of the rules.
All that has to occur for a breakthrough to go all the way through the enemy
body is for each rank to interpenetrate (reach) it. That means, all you are
looking for is for the last rank to move far enough to get 'into' the
position occupied by the enemy body. In your example, even if the cav rolls
short, the rear element will move at least 80p, which in either scale is
enough to have the rear element enter the position of the opposing body.
That is ALL that is required. In 15mm 80p is 50mm, and a cav base is 30mm.
In 25mm, 80p is 80mm and a cav base is 60mm.

All of your other examples had the same problem.

Note then that units over two ranks deep will sometimes not be able to break
through - this is deliberate.
Note also that it has nothing to do with how deep the enemy is. The fact
that you discussed the depth of the enemy as part of your examples is further
proof that it seems you are unfamiliar with the Warrior break-through rule.
Note that assuming it works in exactly the same fashion as some other game
has dangers.

Even a two-deep close order foot unit that rolls down (40p move), in 15mm the
rear rank needs to go 15mm and 40p is 25mm and in 25mm, the rear rank needs
to go 20mm and 40p is 40mm.

No reconsideration of the rule is planned.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Phil Gardocki]

Jon,
Thanks muchly for the clarification. We clearly had it wrong. If your only
requirement is for each element to "reach" the front element of the enemy
being broken through, than I understand and agree with your rules.

Phil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/16/2002 11:11:19 Central Daylight Time, PHGamer@...
writes:


> Thanks muchly for the clarification. We clearly had it wrong. If your only
>
> requirement is for each element to "reach" the front element of the enemy
> being broken through, than I understand and agree with your rules.
>
> Phil
>

You are most welcome, Phil. Happy Father's Day.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Well said Jon!

Kelly
--- JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> <<> 4 Horsemen,
> > I disagree with the concept that a unit has
> to roll a distance, and if
> > it does not travel far enough, than a burst though
> is not allowed.>>
>
>
> Ok, let's chew this elephant one piece at a time.
> After having read your
> post about five times through, I *believe* you are
> talking about
> break-through moves. Note that they are different
> than burst throughs which
> is something that occurs during some rout moves
> (6.32).
>
> Given that we are talking about break-throughs the
> relevant rules are 6.35
> and 11.223.
>
> > << While it is acknowledged that there are
> some game play
> > differences
> > with the scale, they are a matter of scope, do not
> change the tactical
> > decisions. But the burst though rule is different
> because the depth of a
> > cavalry stand in 25mm is equal to 40 paces, where
> in 15mm it is not. And
> > because of this, in a 25mm battle, units will
> burst through when the same
> > combat in 15mm will not.>>
>
>
> Maybe, let's see....
>
> > << Examples.
> > 2 elements deep of Cavalry vs. 2
> elements deep close order foot.
> > The Cavalry does 3-1, but not 1 cpf and elects to
> burst through. Roll D5
> > for distance. In 15mm, the depth of the two
> formations is 90mm. When the
> > 15mm cavalry rolls 40 paces short, and moves 76mm,
> and cannot burst
> > through. In 25mm, the depth of the two formations
> is 120mm. If the
> > cavalry rolls short, it still bursts through.>>
>
>
> This is incorrect and seems to be so from an
> incorrect reading of the rules.
> All that has to occur for a breakthrough to go all
> the way through the enemy
> body is for each rank to interpenetrate (reach) it.
> That means, all you are
> looking for is for the last rank to move far enough
> to get 'into' the
> position occupied by the enemy body. In your
> example, even if the cav rolls
> short, the rear element will move at least 80p,
> which in either scale is
> enough to have the rear element enter the position
> of the opposing body.
> That is ALL that is required. In 15mm 80p is 50mm,
> and a cav base is 30mm.
> In 25mm, 80p is 80mm and a cav base is 60mm.
>
> All of your other examples had the same problem.
>
> Note then that units over two ranks deep will
> sometimes not be able to break
> through - this is deliberate.
> Note also that it has nothing to do with how deep
> the enemy is. The fact
> that you discussed the depth of the enemy as part of
> your examples is further
> proof that it seems you are unfamiliar with the
> Warrior break-through rule.
> Note that assuming it works in exactly the same
> fashion as some other game
> has dangers.
>
> Even a two-deep close order foot unit that rolls
> down (40p move), in 15mm the
> rear rank needs to go 15mm and 40p is 25mm and in
> 25mm, the rear rank needs
> to go 20mm and 40p is 40mm.
>
> No reconsideration of the rule is planned.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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