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Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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<< 1) A ranking system will only encourage the perception that Warrior players
> are the ultra-competitive you know whats. Pursue it if you wish.>>
I'll pursue it if I think it will bring in more players. Too early to tell.
<<> 2) Encourage well painted armies. The WAB guys claim this is one of their
> major selling points, and they are right. Try to get substantial donated
> prizes.>>
WAB's big selling point is it is a game and not a simulation. But we do intend
to lavish some prizes on well-painted armies and terrain, especially since
NASAMW has not pursued this effectively.
<<> 3) Have 25mm Fast Warrior tournaments on Fridays and Saturdays, i.e. Prime
> Time.>>
Like this idea. In fact, I've had it myself and Scott is changing the tourney
schedule for this.
<< One of my prejudices against 15mm armies is that they are merely
> gaming pieces, not often well painted, and anything can substitute for
> anything. >>
Predjudice is right. Shall we 15mm guys get in the back of the bus, too?
<< Encourage 25mm FW games, with substantial Best Painted awards.>>
See above.
<<> 4) FW armies are only twice the size of DBA armies. Promote the bejabbers
> out of this. I personally find DBA sterile. FW is the way to amass a lot
> of different armies.>>
We agree.
<<> 5) Send out review copies, with cover letters explaining how it id improved
> over WRG to the Courier, etc. Latest issue just came last
> week, with no
> mention.>>
Now there is a GREAT idea. I am going to get right on that one.
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Chris Bump Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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In a message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 8:51:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, dave8365
writes:
> Jon and all,
>
> One common impression of the old WRG and new Warrior system (at least
> in So. CA, where I live) is that it is a competition game, and most
> WRG/Warrior gamers are "hyper-competitive a**h***s" (that, by the
> way, is a direct quote from someone else). I certainly don't believe
> this is justified, but I fear it may well be a common perception by
> many outside the Warrior community. As a result, I believe that
> people who are not interested in tournaments have avoided Warrior as
> a tend to not bother with it.
>
> One other factor is that, for me at least, WRG was never a game which
> read well...so unless there was someone to teach the rules, they
> either weren't purchased, or were discarded. Hold "Warrior Clinics"
> at conventions, where basic game mechanics are taught, might also be
> a good thing and promote player recruitment.
>
> Finally (and I think I may have mentioned this before), I think one
> of the best recruiting tools is putting on scenario games at
> conventions. Demonstrate that these rules are a good balance between
> the hyper-complex (like Ancient Empires) and the fun but less-
> detailed (like Might of Arms or Armati). More to the point (and this
> only applies to Historicon), get out of the Lampeter room at the
> Host, get some nice, central space in the Distelfink room, and have
> at least 1 game each day.
>
> Finally, I would also Develop scenarios (and recruit others to help
> develop scenarios) and make them available on the FHE website. This
> gives people a reason to visit, and return, to the web page.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave Lynch
>
I can attest to the this point of view from several people outside of
Warrior/ancients I had the opportunity to talk to at H-Con. One guy even
commented how stupid the rules were because they involved gaining or losing
units based on terrain selection. This of course is absurd, but does demostrate
the misconceptions of WRG/ Ancients to the rest of miniatures gaming community.
WAB has been successful in recruiting, I think, for 1 basic reason. Aesthetics.
I am a lurker on both of their web sites and they are always busy patting
themselves on the back for how good their armies, terrain, presentation look
compared to DBM. They have brought over some WHFB guys, but most of the players
are historically inclined if not down right historians. Point being that the
players they have could and probably should be ours. Don't go getting defensive
on me, but the truth is that most people play 1 rules set (regarding any given
period ie AIW,NAP,ACW etc) and may dabble in others.
I believe demo games would be a good way to go. I also believe that they should
be held in high traffic areas. They should be scenario games that people can
relate to. The games that take place in the hallway downstairs from the main
lobby at H-con are always impressive. Beautiful figures, lots of them, and very
well done terrain. There is always at least one game master (not playing) who
can simultaneously recruit, encourage, offer tactical suggestions to obvious
rookies, keep the game moving and perhaps most importantly keep all indications
of acrimony beneath ground.
Part of our problem, I believe, is that when somone looks at one of our games at
H-con or otherwise they see square pieces of felt and the occassional generic
hill or tree or worse the dreaded felt hill. The most common question asked is
"who's fighting?" and then they move on.
I agree with Greg that more attention should be paid to the artists in our
group. Greg and Dave Smith come to mind, (Coincidentally, I noticed Dave did
not play Warrior at Historicon) Chris Damour's Patricians were quite nice this
year as well. There should be recognition, awards for those who put the effort
in. If not, then why do we bother to paint at all. Why not one colored lead on
the element base? The game is truly only about the bases anyway. The figures
offer some info and Aesthetics. There are better artists than others, just as
there are better tacticians.
I believe that the terrain needs to be upgraded aswell. Pre-set terrain is the
answer in my opion. I think alot of people consider our terrain placement
cheesey. I understand the grand tactical concept of maneuver so that we are all
trying to fight on the most advantageous terrain, but for every Waterloo where
one general maneuvered to the terrain he wanted to fight on, there were
countless plains of Zama. Most people do not easily or perhaps more importantly
immediately grasp this concept. The random terrain generator is fine, but let
the organizer do it himself or just choose multiple terrains. This also allows
for and might even inspire the creation of terrain boards; Not the old DBA 2x2
squares, but 3 dimensional terrain. Tim Brown and his cohorts created some for
Pointcon and it was quite nice. This might inspire the various regions to try
and outdo each other creating attractive terrain. I think that our game has
become stale. Same old matchups, same old take your pick.....
I understand logistics are an issue for tournaments, but other groups manage to
transport huge presentations to the big tournaments.
In general I am opposed to any ranking system as I believe it promotes elitism
and that is one of the sins we are already accused of. No need to amplify this
perception. Those who are good know who they are as do the majority of regular
players.
Do we want to recruit? Seriously want to recruit? The reason I ask is I
believe that to do so will mean sacrafice and work. It may mean not being able
to play in the tournament on one or more days at Historicon. It might mean
driving to Historicon in stead of flying so that terrain and many figures can be
transported. It might mean putting in the work like other game systems do,
months in advance preparing a pleasing, historically accurate demo game.
Just my $.32
Chris
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Chris Bump Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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In a message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 8:51:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, dave8365
writes:
> Jon and all,
>
> One common impression of the old WRG and new Warrior system (at least
> in So. CA, where I live) is that it is a competition game, and most
> WRG/Warrior gamers are "hyper-competitive a**h***s" (that, by the
> way, is a direct quote from someone else). I certainly don't believe
> this is justified, but I fear it may well be a common perception by
> many outside the Warrior community. As a result, I believe that
> people who are not interested in tournaments have avoided Warrior as
> a tend to not bother with it.
>
> One other factor is that, for me at least, WRG was never a game which
> read well...so unless there was someone to teach the rules, they
> either weren't purchased, or were discarded. Hold "Warrior Clinics"
> at conventions, where basic game mechanics are taught, might also be
> a good thing and promote player recruitment.
>
> Finally (and I think I may have mentioned this before), I think one
> of the best recruiting tools is putting on scenario games at
> conventions. Demonstrate that these rules are a good balance between
> the hyper-complex (like Ancient Empires) and the fun but less-
> detailed (like Might of Arms or Armati). More to the point (and this
> only applies to Historicon), get out of the Lampeter room at the
> Host, get some nice, central space in the Distelfink room, and have
> at least 1 game each day.
>
> Finally, I would also Develop scenarios (and recruit others to help
> develop scenarios) and make them available on the FHE website. This
> gives people a reason to visit, and return, to the web page.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave Lynch
>
I can attest to the this point of view from several people outside of
Warrior/ancients I had the opportunity to talk to at H-Con. One guy even
commented how stupid the rules were because they involved gaining or losing
units based on terrain selection. This of course is absurd, but does demostrate
the misconceptions of WRG/ Ancients to the rest of miniatures gaming community.
WAB has been successful in recruiting, I think, for 1 basic reason. Aesthetics.
I am a lurker on both of their web sites and they are always busy patting
themselves on the back for how good their armies, terrain, presentation look
compared to DBM. They have brought over some WHFB guys, but most of the players
are historically inclined if not down right historians. Point being that the
players they have could and probably should be ours. Don't go getting defensive
on me, but the truth is that most people play 1 rules set (regarding any given
period ie AIW,NAP,ACW etc) and may dabble in others.
I believe demo games would be a good way to go. I also believe that they should
be held in high traffic areas. They should be scenario games that people can
relate to. The games that take place in the hallway downstairs from the main
lobby at H-con are always impressive. Beautiful figures, lots of them, and very
well done terrain. There is always at least one game master (not playing) who
can simultaneously recruit, encourage, offer tactical suggestions to obvious
rookies, keep the game moving and perhaps most importantly keep all indications
of acrimony beneath ground.
Part of our problem, I believe, is that when somone looks at one of our games at
H-con or otherwise they see square pieces of felt and the occassional generic
hill or tree or worse the dreaded felt hill. The most common question asked is
"who's fighting?" and then they move on.
I agree with Greg that more attention should be paid to the artists in our
group. Greg and Dave Smith come to mind, (Coincidentally, I noticed Dave did
not play Warrior at Historicon) Chris Damour's Patricians were quite nice this
year as well. There should be recognition, awards for those who put the effort
in. If not, then why do we bother to paint at all. Why not one colored lead on
the element base? The game is truly only about the bases anyway. The figures
offer some info and Aesthetics. There are better artists than others, just as
there are better tacticians.
I believe that the terrain needs to be upgraded aswell. Pre-set terrain is the
answer in my opion. I think alot of people consider our terrain placement
cheesey. I understand the grand tactical concept of maneuver so that we are all
trying to fight on the most advantageous terrain, but for every Waterloo where
one general maneuvered to the terrain he wanted to fight on, there were
countless plains of Zama. Most people do not easily or perhaps more importantly
immediately grasp this concept. The random terrain generator is fine, but let
the organizer do it himself or just choose multiple terrains. This also allows
for and might even inspire the creation of terrain boards; Not the old DBA 2x2
squares, but 3 dimensional terrain. Tim Brown and his cohorts created some for
Pointcon and it was quite nice. This might inspire the various regions to try
and outdo each other creating attractive terrain. I think that our game has
become stale. Same old matchups, same old take your pick.....
I understand logistics are an issue for tournaments, but other groups manage to
transport huge presentations to the big tournaments.
In general I am opposed to any ranking system as I believe it promotes elitism
and that is one of the sins we are already accused of. No need to amplify this
perception. Those who are good know who they are as do the majority of regular
players.
Do we want to recruit? Seriously want to recruit? The reason I ask is I
believe that to do so will mean sacrafice and work. It may mean not being able
to play in the tournament on one or more days at Historicon. It might mean
driving to Historicon in stead of flying so that terrain and many figures can be
transported. It might mean putting in the work like other game systems do,
months in advance preparing a pleasing, historically accurate demo game.
Just my $.32
Chris
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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To both Johns
I agree. I am not convinced a ranking system will do anything for recruiting.
I still feel that FHE should be involved in some way in supporting tournaments
(or any other event) and not just rely on NASAMW. Their support (prize-wise) to
this year's events was shameful.
The ideas on how to support demo teams are awesome, as is the review copy idea.
The ideas on FW events and demos at major cons is something we are already
working on. But I am more interested in what we can do for the gamer who plays
Warrior and never attends an HMGS show. They're the ones I am really after.
J
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Recruit

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 111
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:49 pm Post subject: RE: Recruiting |
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Two keys: (1) Get the product in stores (2) get events running at
conventions that aren't just mini conventions.
(1) I actually liked 7th but wasn't part of the big tournament or online
community - despite that my friends and I account for about 5 sets of all
the rules and lists for it. I never even HEARD of Warrior until I was
browsing a flyer for an HMGS event and almost soiled myself!
I'm in the D/FW area and there are quite a few game stores in the area.
None of them have Warrior on the shelf that I've seen. Are the rules
available thru normal game distributers like Diamond, Chessex, etc???
(2) I went to Origins in July. There were more than 10,000 gamers there.
There wasn't a single Warrior event. (Or if there was I couldn't find it
even looking hard thru all the schedules and flyers).
Running events at mini-cons is one thing, but those people are mostly going
to have been exposed to it before or be the people who already have the huge
negative opinions about TOG. If you really want to get fresh blood into the
game you need to expose people who aren't already minis grognards. HMGS
cons is not where you find these people.
There should have been 2 events every day at Origins and Gencon and
DragonCon at a minimum.
My Two Hundred Pesos.
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John Murphy Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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Well, Jon,
I hate to have to say it mut if the mountain won't come to
what's-his-name then...
If that is the case you have got to look at doing demo games - which
are still really the most effective way, other than browbeating your
friends, to recruit - with a _lot_ of publicity at the local hobby
shops where gamers congregate. This means working with the store
owners and club officers, most of whom would be glad to help out, to
advertise and "market" the event to players who hang at the store.
Then all the same comments made about H-con demos apply from there.
A lot more work but if that is what you are aiming for someone has got
to hit the pavement.
--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
I am more interested in what we can do for
the gamer who plays Warrior and never attends an HMGS show. They're
the ones I am really after.
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John Murphy Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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Also HMGS cons aren't the only cons where you can run good demo games
to promote to a lot of players.
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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Chris
I am 110% in agreement with you on the need to improve Warrior aesthetics. The
terrain sucks and I am as big a culprit as anyone.
FHE will start rewarding terrain and paint jobs as soon as I can make it happen.
We need the artists and engineers among us to tell us how to get great terrain
that is transportable. I have some awesome terrain at home, but bring felt to
cons because of transport.
As far as the 14.0 terrain choosing system, no one says events can't use preset
terrain. The problem is, the majority of our players prefer that system.
J
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John Murphy Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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and by the way, if someone else hasn't already said it, make 100%
certain to have several copies of the rules available for sale right
there at the demo game table. maybe even give one away as a
sportsmanship prize or something.
strike while the iron's hot
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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In a message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:49:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
HOVEYJA2@... writes:
> There should have been 2 events every day at Origins and
> Gencon and
> DragonCon at a minimum.
Yup. But I asked what FHE could do. We'll support teams doing events at these
cons but we can't go to them all ourselves.
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Re: Recruiting |
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In a message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:59:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
> Also HMGS cons aren't the only cons where you can run good
> demo games
> to promote to a lot of players.
I agree with this totally. But we are four guys with day jobs who already do 20
cons a year between us (I do 9 some years). It is more realistic for the
company to look at what it can do to help motivate and support someone running a
Warrior event away from a con we are doing ourselves.
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Re: Recruiting |
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In a message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:02:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
> and by the way, if someone else hasn't already said it, make 100%
> certain to have several copies of the rules available for
> sale right
> there at the demo game table. maybe even give one away as a
> sportsmanship prize or something.
>
> strike while the iron's hot
That is typically counter to the con's rules. But we do have an arrangement
with HMGS that allows us to do that to some extent.
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John Murphy Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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problem with non-"mini grognards" is that, while there is some bad
blood out there about TOG, most folks have an even more negative
reaction to the cost and/or amount of work of putting together a mini
army. it takes a certain mindset to realize they are a reusable
investment and most folks just see it as an insurmountable obstacle
to getting involved in the minis hobby period. folks at minis cons
have generally already gotten around that.
even ~$300 for a pair of painted 15mm FW armies and some terrain is a
whole lotta bucks for someone mostly used to buying $20 board games or
packs of cards.
maybe if you want to go this route you should indulge in the heresy of
providing cheap-o cardboard counters.
--- In WarriorRules@y..., "Hovey, James" <HOVEYJA2@v...> wrote:
> Two keys: (1) Get the product in stores (2) get events running at
> conventions that aren't just mini conventions.
>
> (1) I actually liked 7th but wasn't part of the big tournament or
online
> community - despite that my friends and I account for about 5 sets
of all
> the rules and lists for it. I never even HEARD of Warrior until I
was
> browsing a flyer for an HMGS event and almost soiled myself!
>
> I'm in the D/FW area and there are quite a few game stores in the
area.
> None of them have Warrior on the shelf that I've seen. Are the
rules
> available thru normal game distributers like Diamond, Chessex,
etc???
>
> (2) I went to Origins in July. There were more than 10,000 gamers
there.
> There wasn't a single Warrior event. (Or if there was I couldn't
find it
> even looking hard thru all the schedules and flyers).
>
> Running events at mini-cons is one thing, but those people are
mostly going
> to have been exposed to it before or be the people who already have
the huge
> negative opinions about TOG. If you really want to get fresh blood
into the
> game you need to expose people who aren't already minis grognards.
HMGS
> cons is not where you find these people.
>
> There should have been 2 events every day at Origins and Gencon and
> DragonCon at a minimum.
>
>
> My Two Hundred Pesos.
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Recruit

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 28
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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On very, Very, VERY small horses... I think they are horses>..
LOL!
Gracias,
Glenn/Dwarf_Warrior@...
This is my Fantasy and 6/10mm Alter Ego e-mail account
Historical Miniatures and bead jewelry: Warbeads@...
Science Fiction: Triphibious@...
On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:40:41 -0400 "Kurtus A. Brown" <sheol@...>
writes:
>Arrrrg!!! 6mm is too small They do look good in mass though. How do
>you
>mount your figures???
>
>--Kurt
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Dwarf_warrior@...>
>To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:33 AM
>Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Recruiting
>
>
>> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:04:34 -0400 "Kurtus A. Brown"
><sheol@...>
>> writes:
>> <snip>
>> >I must stick up for 15's here. Not true about the quality of 15's.
>I
>> >have
>> >seen some 15's that would make some 25's look ugly (Corvus Belli
>> >figures are
>> >the BEST figures I have ever seen). And battles LOOK like battles
>in
>> >15mm...25's can take up alot more space. This is just my opinion
>> >though. To
>> >me 15mm is the one true wargaming scale , and it is THEE scale
>for
>> >tournament gamers (me).
>> >
>>
>> Heresy! Six (6) mm (especially skirmish) is God's Own True Scale.
>> <grin>
>>
>> But beyond that, all scales have detailed figures and 'vanilla'
>figures
>> - Foundry/Reviresco/Irregular (some) for 25's and
>Baccus/H&R/Irregular
>> (some) for 6mm.
>>
>> Gracias,
>> Glenn/Dwarf_Warrior@...
>> This is my Fantasy and 6/10mm Alter Ego e-mail account
>> Historical Miniatures and bead jewelry: Warbeads@...
>> Science Fiction: Triphibious@...
>>
>>
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Recruit

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 28
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Recruiting |
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On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:10:20 -0000 "rollsup3" <jjmurphy@...>
writes:
<snip>
>even ~$300 for a pair of painted 15mm FW armies and some terrain is a
>whole lotta bucks for someone mostly used to buying $20 board games or
<snip>
Um, where are you buying your board games currently?
$20, I wish!
I can't get a copy of a war game at that price in most shops and don't
even ask what eBay bids for a simple game like Seelowe by SPI are going
for.... I have been out bid three times this week alone.
Gracias,
Glenn/Dwarf_Warrior@...
This is my Fantasy and 6/10mm Alter Ego e-mail account
Historical Miniatures and bead jewelry: Warbeads@...
Science Fiction: Triphibious@...
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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