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Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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Kelly Wilkinson Dictator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4172 Location: Raytown, MO
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Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 2:02 am Post subject: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Hello gentlefolk,
I was just reading 2.32 under HTW and noted that HTW are flung
immediately before contact. Having this in mind, are Roman Legionarii
able to use the HTW factor or the other weapons factor when relieving
their fellows already in contact? It certainly would be a very hairy
situation with the relieving unit flinging HTW into the melee in
which enemy troops are in close combat with friends in the firing
line. If this has already been answered could someone refer me to the
post?
Kelly Wilkinson
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Kelly Wilkinson Dictator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4172 Location: Raytown, MO
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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--- jwilkinson62 <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
> Hello gentlefolk,
>
> I was just reading 2.32 under HTW and noted
> that HTW are flung
> immediately before contact. Having this in mind, are
> Roman Legionarii
> able to use the HTW factor or the other weapons
> factor when relieving
> their fellows already in contact? It certainly would
> be a very hairy
> situation with the relieving unit flinging HTW into
> the melee in
> which enemy troops are in close combat with friends
> in the firing
> line. If this has already been answered could
> someone refer me to the
> post?
>
> Kelly Wilkinson
>
>
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Jake Kovel Legionary

Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 589 Location: Simsbury, CT
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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In a message dated 6/14/02 2:15:22 AM, jwilkinson62@... writes:
>--- jwilkinson62 <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
>> Hello gentlefolk,
>>
>> I was just reading 2.32 under HTW and noted
>> that HTW are flung
>> immediately before contact. Having this in mind, are
>> Roman Legionarii
>> able to use the HTW factor or the other weapons
>> factor when relieving
>> their fellows already in contact? It certainly would
>> be a very hairy
>> situation with the relieving unit flinging HTW into
>> the melee in
>> which enemy troops are in close combat with friends
>> in the firing
>> line. If this has already been answered could
>> someone refer me to the
>> post?
>>
>
Heavy throwing weapon counts at first contact for the unit using it. When a
legionary unit replaces another in combat, it is still first contact for the
new unit. It is my understanding that they count.
Jacob Kovel
Sales Ho (and occassional rules guesser)
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Legionary

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 300
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Giving the HTW when replacing another unit seems pretty harsh. Isn't the model
that they are moving into position to give their tired comrades a break? Seems
like the advantage of fighting fresh and undisordered against troops who are
likley tired and possibly disordered is a pretty big advantage itself.
Otherwise, a lot of those replace in combat moves are going to lead to immediate
routs of the enemy unit.
Attrition rather than shock of impact was the advantage, I thought. But I'm not
a Ho, so I could be wrong.
John Meunier
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Relax, everyone. The HTW is indeed at first contact in a replacement just as
it is now through LI. Speculating on how this plays before you actually see
a few games with it is scaring the children....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Centurion

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 933
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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If the replacing unit gets HTW at first contact, we
will be seeing about 75% Roman armies within a year.
boyd
--- scribblerjohn@... wrote:
> Giving the HTW when replacing another unit seems
> pretty harsh. Isn't the model that they are moving
> into position to give their tired comrades a break?
> Seems like the advantage of fighting fresh and
> undisordered against troops who are likley tired and
> possibly disordered is a pretty big advantage
> itself.
>
> Otherwise, a lot of those replace in combat moves
> are going to lead to immediate routs of the enemy
> unit.
>
> Attrition rather than shock of impact was the
> advantage, I thought. But I'm not a Ho, so I could
> be wrong.
>
> John Meunier
>
=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians
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Ed Forbes Centurion

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1092
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Wanax Andron
<vercengetorix@...> writes:
> If the replacing unit gets HTW at first contact, we
> will be seeing about 75% Roman armies within a year.
> boyd
>
Roman armies still have major disadvantages against mounted. Knights and
SHC tend to go through HI,HTW,SH almost like they are not there.
You are not able to replace against being pushed back by mounted. Even
HC,L, SH does a number on Roman foot.
Early and later Roman armies do somewhat better as they either have LTS
or JLS,D, but not that much better against cav.
The Roman armies will do very well against foot in the open, but then
again, they should as that is who the army was developed to fight.
Ed F
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joncleaves Moderator


Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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In a message dated 6/14/2002 20:36:24 Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:
> Many other weapons have gotten a boost lately, and it does not seem to have
> unbalanced the game overly. Perhaps the Legion is due. I just hope this
> arms race is not forgotten by rules and list authors when considering other
> high potential weaponry.
>
We have made no changes to any weapons since Warrior's publication. Please
do not scare the children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Kelly Wilkinson Dictator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4172 Location: Raytown, MO
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Let me add that in a face to face fight against pikes
this give a very unhistorical advantage to the
legions. It has been quoted on this board that Livy
and other historians believed that pike blocks could
not be defeated from the front. If the Romans could
have done what we in Warrior can, they would have
crushed every pike army "frontally" they met. Instead,
they used their superior numbers and maneuver to
defeat them on the flanks. Round one pikes verses
Romans. pikes 32 figure unit front ranks HI verses a
16 figure Roman HI unit. Pikes are 24 @ a 3=60
casualities on an even die roll. Romans are 12 @ a
6=60 casualties. Lock is the result with the romans
disordered. Next bound a replacement unit comes in
with htw and Kaplooey (Taken from the old Batman
serial)! New Roman unit is 24 @ a 6=60 casualties.
Pikes are 16 @ a 2 =32 casualties. they are now
disordered (because that is what happens when pikes
lose and instead of being pushed back they disorder)
and will most likely go away in a bound because the
other Roman unit will be ready to throw HTW after
their rally(which I might mention has already been
thrown and could not really be recovered since there
are combatants fighting on top of those spent pila.
Any other infantry dies most hideously. Yuck!
Kelly
--- Ed C Forbes <eforbes100@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Wanax
> Andron
> <vercengetorix@...> writes:
> > If the replacing unit gets HTW at first contact,
> we
> > will be seeing about 75% Roman armies within a
> year.
> > boyd
> >
>
> Roman armies still have major disadvantages against
> mounted. Knights and
> SHC tend to go through HI,HTW,SH almost like they
> are not there.
> You are not able to replace against being pushed
> back by mounted. Even
> HC,L, SH does a number on Roman foot.
>
> Early and later Roman armies do somewhat better as
> they either have LTS
> or JLS,D, but not that much better against cav.
>
> The Roman armies will do very well against foot in
> the open, but then
> again, they should as that is who the army was
> developed to fight.
>
> Ed F
>
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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>
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Kelly Wilkinson Dictator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4172 Location: Raytown, MO
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Okay, I'm not into scaring children. Let's look at
some numbers. How about 1 unit of 16 reg "c" Hi HTW,
Sh verses 1 unit of 16 reg "c" Hi HTW, sh. They both
hit each other at 12 @ 6=60 casualties. Both take 3
casualties per figure and now are disordered. One has
friends in the next bound that replaces them in combat
who lustily throw their pila in the middle of the
melee of the other two units (This would be okay for
Richard the 1st if they were all Irish! LOL!) and now
here are the new numbers. The fresh relieving unit now
counts 12@6=60 casualties, while their disordered
enemies are 12@0 12 casualties. This gives the
disordered troops 3 cpf and is double the total
casualties they dished out and causes an immediate
rout! Ouch! I understand that we are trying to help
the legions perform as they should but does allowing
the replacing unit to use HTW go to far? I wonder, is
there anyone who can explain from any existing Roman
military or historical documents that explain how this
replacement works? I would find information like this
most interesting. Where would one find it? Are there
any Roman historians out there with the clout of a
Mike Pakovic?
Respectfully,
Kelly Wilkinson
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Kelly Wilkinson Dictator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4172 Location: Raytown, MO
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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--- kelly wilkinson <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
> Let me add that in a face to face fight against
> pikes
> this give a very unhistorical advantage to the
> legions. It has been quoted on this board that Livy
> and other historians believed that pike blocks could
> not be defeated from the front. If the Romans could
> have done what we in Warrior can, they would have
> crushed every pike army "frontally" they met.
> Instead,
> they used their superior numbers and maneuver to
> defeat them on the flanks. Round one pikes verses
> Romans. pikes 32 figure unit front ranks HI verses a
> 16 figure Roman HI unit. Pikes are 24 @ a 3=60
> casualities on an even die roll. Romans are 12 @ a
> 6=60 casualties. Lock is the result with the romans
> disordered. Next bound a replacement unit comes in
> with htw and Kaplooey (Taken from the old Batman
> serial)! New Roman unit is 24 @ a 6=60 casualties.
> Pikes are 16 @ a 2 =32 casualties. they are now
> disordered (because that is what happens when pikes
> lose and instead of being pushed back they disorder)
> and will most likely go away in a bound because the
> other Roman unit will be ready to throw HTW after
> their rally(which I might mention has already been
> thrown and could not really be recovered since there
> are combatants fighting on top of those spent pila.
> Any other infantry dies most hideously. Yuck!
>
> Kelly
> --- Ed C Forbes <eforbes100@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Wanax
> > Andron
> > <vercengetorix@...> writes:
> > > If the replacing unit gets HTW at first contact,
> > we
> > > will be seeing about 75% Roman armies within a
> > year.
> > > boyd
> > >
> >
> > Roman armies still have major disadvantages
> against
> > mounted. Knights and
> > SHC tend to go through HI,HTW,SH almost like they
> > are not there.
> > You are not able to replace against being pushed
> > back by mounted. Even
> > HC,L, SH does a number on Roman foot.
> >
> > Early and later Roman armies do somewhat better as
> > they either have LTS
> > or JLS,D, but not that much better against cav.
> >
> > The Roman armies will do very well against foot
> in
> > the open, but then
> > again, they should as that is who the army was
> > developed to fight.
> >
> > Ed F
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> > less!
> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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Kelly Wilkinson Dictator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4172 Location: Raytown, MO
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Sorry About the multiple posts, I accidentally pushed
the wrong button when I discovered an error in one of
my numbers. It does not change the result it was just
a mistake in the writing.
I accidentally wrote that the Roman unit doing the
replacement had 24 figures which was an error. In this
post I changed it to 16 so read this one as it is the
correct post. Sorry for the inconvenience!
Kelly
> Let me add that in a face to face fight against
> pikes
> this give a very unhistorical advantage to the
> legions. It has been quoted on this board that Livy
> and other historians believed that pike blocks could
> not be defeated from the front. If the Romans could
> have done what we in Warrior can, they would have
> crushed every pike army "frontally" they met.
> Instead,
> they used their superior numbers and maneuver to
> defeat them on the flanks. Round one pikes verses
> Romans. pikes 32 figure unit front ranks HI verses a
> 16 figure Roman HI unit. Pikes are 24 @ a 3=60
> casualities on an even die roll. Romans are 12 @ a
> 6=60 casualties. Lock is the result with the romans
> disordered. Next bound a replacement unit comes in
> with htw and Kaplooey (Taken from the old Batman
> serial)! New Roman unit is 16 @ a 6=60 casualties.
> Pikes are 16 @ a 2 =32 casualties. they are now
> disordered (because that is what happens when pikes
> lose and instead of being pushed back they disorder)
> and will most likely go away in a bound because the
> other Roman unit will be ready to throw HTW after
> their rally(which I might mention has already been
> thrown and could not really be recovered since there
> are combatants fighting on top of those spent pila.
> Any other infantry dies most hideously. Yuck!
>
> Kelly
> --- Ed C Forbes <eforbes100@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Wanax
> > Andron
> > <vercengetorix@...> writes:
> > > If the replacing unit gets HTW at first contact,
> > we
> > > will be seeing about 75% Roman armies within a
> > year.
> > > boyd
> > >
> >
> > Roman armies still have major disadvantages
> against
> > mounted. Knights and
> > SHC tend to go through HI,HTW,SH almost like they
> > are not there.
> > You are not able to replace against being pushed
> > back by mounted. Even
> > HC,L, SH does a number on Roman foot.
> >
> > Early and later Roman armies do somewhat better as
> > they either have LTS
> > or JLS,D, but not that much better against cav.
> >
> > The Roman armies will do very well against foot
> in
> > the open, but then
> > again, they should as that is who the army was
> > developed to fight.
> >
> > Ed F
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> > less!
> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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Greg Regets Imperator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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I have to agree with Jon on this one.
This will be a wonderful weapon against other infantry but will do nothing to
help you against good cavalry. We might also consider the cost of buying that
second wave of troops at the HI price. FW is one thing, a full-on 1,600 point
battle is another. Could you even cover 1/2 of the table with an army that buys
two complete lines of HI?
As far as the pike vs. Legion goes, I remember a battle between the Macedonians
and the Romans where the Romans chose to fight in rocky terrain because it
favored them against the phalanx. Of course in our game, they would get no real
advantage, as a matter of fact the lower potential damage because of the -2
disorder each unit would take hurts the HI Legionary a bit more against the
larger MI pike unit.
Many other weapons have gotten a boost lately, and it does not seem to have
unbalanced the game overly. Perhaps the Legion is due. I just hope this arms
race is not forgotten by rules and list authors when considering other high
potential weaponry.
Have a nice weekend of gaming, and hope everyone gets their EIR Foundry orders
in quickly. ~wink~
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth
Relax, everyone. The HTW is indeed at first contact in a replacement just as
it is now through LI. Speculating on how this plays before you actually see
a few games with it is scaring the children....
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Greg Regets Imperator

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Is this your saying for the week? :-)
I was speaking about the 1.5 Lance, 2.0 LTS and 120p short range for crossbow,
which of course pre-dates your publication but are relatively new none the less.
There are some cool list things though, like all that plashing in the forward
sectors and boats for anyone that has ever drank water. Please understand, I'm
not saying any of this is a bad thing. I actually think helping the Romans is a
good thing, as long as its not the LIR. ;-)
G
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth
In a message dated 6/14/2002 20:36:24 Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:
> Many other weapons have gotten a boost lately, and it does not seem to have
> unbalanced the game overly. Perhaps the Legion is due. I just hope this
> arms race is not forgotten by rules and list authors when considering other
> high potential weaponry.
>
We have made no changes to any weapons since Warrior's publication. Please
do not scare the children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Chris Bump Legate

Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Romans with HTW and replacing others in hth |
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Roman armies still have major disadvantages against mounted. Knights
and
SHC tend to go through HI,HTW,SH almost like they are not there.
You are not able to replace against being pushed back by mounted. Even
HC,L, SH does a number on Roman foot.
Early and later Roman armies do somewhat better as they either have LTS
or JLS,D, but not that much better against cav.
The Roman armies will do very well against foot in the open, but then
again, they should as that is who the army was developed to fight.
Ed F
Not to mention, that the tactic is only allowed if the troops being replaced are
recoiling or locked in place. Will work well against gauls and greeks, will
only forestall the inevitable against knights.
Chris
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