Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Patrick Byrne]

Couple of rules questions from my past couple of games.

Regarding Marches:
1. When does the unit specify which "some enemy" it is going after. Only at
the beginning of the whole March Phase or at the beginning of each March
Segment?


Regarding Support Shooting:
2. If a unit is 2 elements wide by 1 rank deep in a subsequent bound of HTH,
can it be support shot if it one of those elements is overhanging (does not
have an enemy unit directly to its front, but will count as prolonging the
front for HTH)?
Example. A cav unit charges an enemy 1 rank wide by 2 ranks deep on the
first bound, recoils its opponent, then expands in follow-up. In the second
bound, the expanded part will fight as prolonging the front. Can it then be
support shot by third party bowmen?


Regarding Beserkirs:
3. I just want to make sure I am reading the rules correctly that when a
unit armed with 2SA,Sh hit at first contact, they are considered shieldless.

-PB

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/25/2002 07:42:40 Central Standard Time, cuan@...
writes:

> 1. When does the unit specify which "some enemy" it is going after. Only at
> the beginning of the whole March Phase or at the beginning of each March
> Segment?
>

Beginning of the phase.

>
> Regarding Support Shooting:
> 2. If a unit is 2 elements wide by 1 rank deep in a subsequent bound of
> HTH,
> can it be support shot if it one of those elements is overhanging (does not
> have an enemy unit directly to its front, but will count as prolonging the
> front for HTH)?

Yes. 8.83



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[joncleaves]

Ok, we have made this WAY too complicated.

How about this: you guys write me a clarification that allows what normally
happens on bound one (a general advance 'towards' the enemy without it having
to be perfectly and precisely towards AN enemy) and disallows using a
'lateral' or 'to the rear' repositioning march as an advance for orders.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Coon]

> > 1. When does the unit specify which "some enemy" it is going
after. Only at
> > the beginning of the whole March Phase or at the beginning of
each March
> > Segment?
> >
>
> Beginning of the phase.

Does that then mean that if the selected enemy body itself marches,
you have to follow it? Lets say I am Reg LHI in 1X2 formation, and
directly across from me on the board is a 1X2 body of HC. In segment
4 he marches straight at me. In segment 3 he wheels 45 degrees to
his left. In my segment 3 march do I march towards where he was at
the start of segment 3, or at the end? Since we march
simultainiously I assume it is where he started the segment (the rest
of this discourse will be written under that assumtion). Now in
segment two I must wheel towards his new segment 2 starting location?
Since the selected body I am marching towards has wheeled away from
his original vector, I must now wheel to a new vector, correct? If
he wheels another 45 left (placing him at 90 to his original vector),
I will need a pretty solid wheel to "keep him in my sights". In
segment 1 he now marches parallel to the back edges of the board
forcing another good wheel from me.

Does the enemy body you are marching entirely towards to meet your
orders have to be declared? Can you keep it a secret (by writting it
down) and at the end of the march phases show who all in your army
marched entirely towards any specific enemy body?

It seems at the beginning of the march phase we have to record all of
the "some enemy's" we are going to use to meet orders, if we are
under attack or probe. If you do not record it, it will be too easy
to "change your mind" in mid phase and meet your orders with another
enemy body. I guess you all are already doing that?

It seems that an enemy body can essentially "drag" one of my bodies
around causing a good deal of bolixing once he knows I am advancing
towards him?

I realize that in many cases I will be able to meet the more than
half requirement of attack and probe and avoid this, but it will
happen sometimes. It will be especially true if the enemy is under
something below attack or probe and I am not. Seems like there will
be a lot of Wait vs. Wait start of battle orders. Do we just overuse
attack and probe around here?

Please clarify that you march entirely towards an enemy body's
location at the start of a march segment, and that you do not have to
follow it in an individual segment (but do have to realign next
segment to its new vector).

For me I wish either of the following were the case as it would make
things on the board easier to keep track of:

To count as an advance in the march phase

1. At the beginning of the march phase you must select an enemy
body. You must march all of your possible march segments entirely
towards some point on that bodies CURRENT location.

or

To count as an advance in the march phase

2. At the beginning of each march segment you must select an enemy
body. You must march all of that possible march segment entirely
towards some point on that bodies CURRENT location. A new enemy body
may be selected each segment.

I prefer #1 by a huge margin BTW.

Don

[joncleaves]

Those are the same two options that were in the other mail. They don't work,
because they are too bound-one-restrictive.


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/1/2002 19:15:24 Central Standard Time,
jjendon@... writes:

> a body marching as far as possible directly towards the enemy rear board
> edge also qualifies as an advance. The body must wheel to get its front
> edge parallel to the rear board edge as soon as possible.
>

This is still too restrictive. If you must, have the whole 'specific enemy
body' advance thing only need to apply after bound one.


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/1/2002 19:42:31 Central Standard Time,
jjendon@... writes:

> I guess I do not understand what you want.

I don't 'want' anything. I think the rule is fine. But your group has had
issues with it, so i am trying to work with you on a clarification that helps
you understand it.

>
>
> I do not see what is restrictive about picking a point to march to at the
> beginning of the march phase (or any specific segment) and sticking to it.
> I do not see what is restrictive about marching towards the enemy rear edge
> and sticking to it.


I found the 'must go directly at the enemy table edge too restrictive. What
about the LC unit wheeling out around the woods as it heads to the other side
of the table?

> I like your staement that the rule only applies on bounds 2+. However
> what
> would the rule be on bound one then?

I don't know. I like the way it is, so hard for me to say.

>
> Here were your parameters "How about this: you guys write me a
> clarification that allows what normally happens on bound one (a general
> advance 'towards' the enemy without it having to be perfectly and precisely
> towards AN enemy) and disallows using a 'lateral' or 'to the rear'
> repositioning march as an advance for orders."

Yep. That is what I think will do it for both of us. What you wrote made a
bound oner go 'perfectly and precisely' toward a single enemy body (or table
edge, either is a problem). I say we keep at it.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/1/2002 20:37:04 Central Standard Time,
jjendon@... writes:

> At the beginning of each march segment you must select an enemy body. You
> must march all of that possible march segment entirely towards some point
> on
> that bodies CURRENT location. Intervening terrain may be wheeled around if
> the terrain would reduce the distance of that march segment. Interveneing
> bodies must be wheeled around if the intervening body would halt the march.
> A new enemy body may be selected each segment, but you must march each
> segment you are able.
>
> A body marching as far as possible directly towards the enemy rear board
> edge also qualifies as an advance. The body must wheel to get its front
> edge parallel to the rear board edge as soon as possible. Intervening
> terrain may be wheeled around if the terrain would reduce the distance of
> that march segment. Interveneing bodies must be wheeled around if the
> intervening body would halt the march.
>

That seems to work. I'll save it and take a closer look as I work on the
next clarification update. Meantime, use it and let me know if it continues
to work for you.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Coon]

> Ok, we have made this WAY too complicated.
>
> How about this: you guys write me a clarification that allows what
normally happens on bound one >(a general advance 'towards' the enemy
without it having
> to be perfectly and precisely towards AN enemy) and disallows using a
> 'lateral' or 'to the rear' repositioning march as an advance for orders.

Here are two. Each has a different flavor, but both capture what I think
you want to happen and in fact is what happens in most bound 1 scenarios.

For a bodies move to count as an advance in the march phase

At the beginning of the march phase you must select an enemy body. You must
march all of your possible march segments entirely towards some point on
that bodies CURRENT location.

or

For a bodies move to count as an advance in the march phase

At the beginning of each march segment you must select an enemy body. You
must march all of that possible march segment entirely towards some point on
that bodies CURRENT location. A new enemy body may be selected each
segment, but you must march each segment you are able.

These both cause commands under attack or probe to do the "go to the other
side" thing, without causing them to be dragged around by a now moving "some
body" designation. Basically the body trying to qualify as advancing
selects an enemy body (either at the beginning of the march phase for the
first choice, or at the beginning of each segment for the second), picks a
point on that body where it stands at that moment, and must do all that is
possible to reach that spot in that march phase (or segment).

Don

[Don Coon]

Why are they bound one restrictive? The enemy is on the other side of the
board? You pick one and march towards where he started the march phase. If
you do not happen to have an enemy directly opposite you, then 1. Do not
use that body to meet your orders, or 2. You gotta wheel towards somebosy
eh? How about in addition to either of the two methods:

a body marching as far as possible directly towards the enemy rear board
edge also qualifies as an advance. The body must wheel to get its front
edge parallel to the rear board edge as soon as possible.


> Those are the same two options that were in the other mail. They don't
work,
> because they are too bound-one-restrictive.

[Don Coon]

I guess I do not understand what you want. It sounds like you want a liquid
rule. It sorta applies but not always. Kinda use your judgement type
thing. You will have to explain what is restrictive here. You want me to
be able to march not directly at someone, yet not too lateral. What would
be too lateral to you? You do not want a body to qualify as advancing if it
repositions or moves lateral, yet when I take the lateralness out of the
rule you say it is too restrictive.

I do not see what is restrictive about picking a point to march to at the
beginning of the march phase (or any specific segment) and sticking to it.
I do not see what is restrictive about marching towards the enemy rear edge
and sticking to it. If I do not do one of these two things then I am moving
laterally.

I like your staement that the rule only applies on bounds 2+. However what
would the rule be on bound one then?

Here were your parameters "How about this: you guys write me a
clarification that allows what normally happens on bound one (a general
advance 'towards' the enemy without it having to be perfectly and precisely
towards AN enemy) and disallows using a 'lateral' or 'to the rear'
repositioning march as an advance for orders."

I do not know how I can prohibit lateral moves from counting, and still only
require a "general" advance towards. How general is general?

Don

> > a body marching as far as possible directly towards the enemy rear board
> > edge also qualifies as an advance. The body must wheel to get its front
> > edge parallel to the rear board edge as soon as possible.
>
> This is still too restrictive. If you must, have the whole 'specific
enemy
> body' advance thing only need to apply after bound one.

[Don Coon]

> I found the 'must go directly at the enemy table edge too restrictive.
What about the LC unit wheeling out around the >woods as it heads to the
other side of the table?

Well then he isnt going "entirely towards" some enemy then is he? That is
in violation of the current written rule.

> > I like your statement that the rule only applies on bounds 2+.
However what would the rule be on bound one then?

> I don't know. I like the way it is, so hard for me to say.

The rule is confusing (to us). You select a body at the beginning of the
phase (per you answer to Patrick). It does not say if I have to follow the
body (neither of us want this I hope), or move "entirely towards" its pre
march phase location. It does not allow for intervening terrain (as in your
LC example). I find it hard to believe we are the only ones with confusion
over the written rule here. I think it is a case of playing the game the
way we "know" it is supposed to be played vs. how it is written.

> Yep. That is what I think will do it for both of us. What you wrote made
a bound oner go 'perfectly and precisely' toward >a single enemy body (or
table edge, either is a problem). I say we keep at it.

Yes. I did this as a reiteration of an answer you gave to Patrick some time
ago stating:

"What you can't do is move so that you get 1p closer than you were to the
enemy body that you choose and make your march move in such a way that you
are not using it in its entirety to go toward that body"

In your LC example above, the LC unit is violating your exact statement.

Alright trying again:

For a bodies move to count as an advance in the march phase

At the beginning of each march segment you must select an enemy body. You
must march all of that possible march segment entirely towards some point on
that bodies CURRENT location. Intervening terrain may be wheeled around if
the terrain would reduce the distance of that march segment. Interveneing
bodies must be wheeled around if the intervening body would halt the march.
A new enemy body may be selected each segment, but you must march each
segment you are able.

A body marching as far as possible directly towards the enemy rear board
edge also qualifies as an advance. The body must wheel to get its front
edge parallel to the rear board edge as soon as possible. Intervening
terrain may be wheeled around if the terrain would reduce the distance of
that march segment. Interveneing bodies must be wheeled around if the
intervening body would halt the march.

Less restrictive I think. Hopefully approaching what we are after. Let me
know. As I gain insight into what is in your mind, I can modify and rewrite
to match. I think the above allows the possibilities of a bound oner needed
to "get to the other side" but having either 1. no enemy directly across
from it, or 2. Intervening junk blocking the most direct vector.

Don

[Don Coon]

> > At the beginning of each march segment you must select an enemy body.
You
> > must march all of that possible march segment entirely towards some
point
> > on
> > that bodies CURRENT location. Intervening terrain may be wheeled around
if
> > the terrain would reduce the distance of that march segment.
Interveneing
> > bodies must be wheeled around if the intervening body would halt the
march.
> > A new enemy body may be selected each segment, but you must march each
> > segment you are able.
> >
> > A body marching as far as possible directly towards the enemy rear board
> > edge also qualifies as an advance. The body must wheel to get its front
> > edge parallel to the rear board edge as soon as possible. Intervening
> > terrain may be wheeled around if the terrain would reduce the distance
of
> > that march segment. Interveneing bodies must be wheeled around if the
> > intervening body would halt the march.
> >
>
> That seems to work. I'll save it and take a closer look as I work on the
> next clarification update. Meantime, use it and let me know if it
continues
> to work for you.
>
> Jon

Ok. We will keep our eye on it and see if there is any wiggle room that is
undesirable.

Don