Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Chris Bump]

In a message dated 5/4/2003 7:30:02 PM Central Standard Time,
jjendon@... writes:


> Chris,
>
> Dude terrain and camels are not combat causes of disorder. You are mixing
> apples and oranges here. The waver test is due to combat cause of disorder
> while disordered. I will of course not make a rules call here as that is
> not my job, but its pretty obvious to me the unit disordered by the camels
> which receives a combat cause of disorder owes a test. Do not confuse
> disordered while disordered with recieves a combat cause of disorder while
> disordered.
>
> Don
>

Alright Don,

I am suprised, as precise as you normally are, that you did not follow the
thread of my question- I don't think, based on your statement, that you even
carefully read my question before posting. So let me lay it all out so that
my question may be more easily understood.

1. I am NOT confusing non-combat with combat causes of disorder. We play
that if a unit is disordered and then receives a subsequent cause of disorder
from combat then that unit must waver.

2. My querries came about from answers you provided to another that ran
contrary to the interpretation of the rules as we play them out here. I am
not looking for a free rules reader. That's what I pay Don for. <G>

3. We all seem to agree that a unit that becomes disordered, for whatever
reason-be it smell or terrain, before becoming disordered in combat is
required to take a waver test because of the second cause of combat induced
disorder. This is definitely how it is played out here.

4. Jon wrote that prep shooting along with support shooting and hth are all
part of the same combat "phase". I querried him as to whether he meant both
prep and support shooting were part of the same combat "phase". He affirmed
that in fact all three events were part of same combat "phase". This is
critical to my line of questioning as that is NOT how we play here.

5. This querry came about because he wrote the statement that multiple
combat disorders in the same combat "phase" do not cause a waver test,
presumably because it is all simultaneous. This IS also how we play out
here.

6. SO HERE IS THE QUESTION: If an otherwise steady unit receives multiple
combat causes of disorder in the same turn, ie foot recoiling from mounted
and then being broken through by the same mounted body does not take a waver
test; then why does a unit who is disordered in prep shooting and then
disordered again in HTH/ support shooting within the same turn or combat
"phase" take a waver test?

7. I then followed with a series of parallel questions and statements.

A. If a unit that becomes disordered in prep shooting and then again in HTH
does not take a waver test because both the prep shooting and hth are in the
same combat "phase" then we are playing incorrectly here. WE require that
they do- a preferred tactic of your's, Don.
B. If, in fact, a unit should not take a waver test for becoming disordered
during prep shooting and then again in HTH (because the two events are part
of the same combat phase) I asked the seemingly parallel questions as to why
or whether otherwise steady units that become disordered during the charge
phase-either smell or terrain induced- would then take a waver test for
receiving disordering effects in the subsequent hth. Reason being that the
non combat cause of disorder occurred within the same combat phase ie after
prep shooting and before support shooting/ hth.

Jon responded that both terrain and smell caused disorder incurred during the
charge would cause a waver test to the disordered unit who then received a
disordering effect in hth. Which is how we play out here. He further wrote
that the charge was not part of the combat "phase" but was a phase unto
inself, begging the question of continuity about a phase sandwiched within a
single phase. If prep shooting, support shooting and hth are all part of the
same combat phase (per Jon), then it seems odd that the charge "phase"(a
seperate phase unto inself per Jon), which comes immediately after prep
shooting and immediately before support shooting and HTH would not be part of
the combat phase and would be occurring within the middle of another phase
(combat).

MY ORIGINAL QUESTION was never answered. Subsequent questions were answered.
Furthermore all questions that Jon did answer fell in line with how we play
here. I was suprised to see that prep shooting was considered part of the
same combat phase as support shooting and hth. I thought that prep was a
phase as was charging as was support/hth. When I read Jon's post that prep
shooting was in fact part of the same combat phase as support and hth my
question arose.

Does a steady unit that becomes disordered during prep shooting and then
again during the subsequent hth take a waver test? IF not then the smell and
terrain examples would seem incongrous with the rules' intention and would be
contrary to how we play here and the reason for my question. If so then
Jon's post about the three events all being part of the same combat phase was
flawed and likely confusing to the original recipient.

How's that a question and rationalization as to why being as clear as mud?
Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/4/2003 21:16:52 Central Daylight Time, cncbump@...
writes:

> Alright Don,
>
> I am suprised, as precise as you normally are, that you did not follow the
> thread of my question- I don't think, based on your statement, that you
> even
> carefully read my question before posting. So let me lay it all out so
> that
> my question may be more easily understood.
>

Everyone, Don, Chris and I have taken this misunderstanding offline.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Coon]

> So then we have been playing it wrong by requiring that a unit becoming
> disordered in prep and then again in hth take a waiver test? This brings
up
> some additional interesting questions. If a unit of cav charges a unit of
> camels and is disordered in hth and or support shooting is the cav then
> required to take a waiver test? He is disordered by the camels and then
> again by the results of hth/support shooting, but this all took place
within
> the same "combat" phase. This, of course, then begs the parallel question
of
> rough terrain. If a cav unit charges a foot unit beyond difficult terrain
> and in the course of hth/ support shooting the cav unit becomes
disordered,
> is the cav unit required to take a waiver test? He was disordered by
> charging across the rough terrain and subsequently in hth, but again this
> took place in the same phase.

Chris,

Dude terrain and camels are not combat causes of disorder. You are mixing
apples and oranges here. The waver test is due to combat cause of disorder
while disordered. I will of course not make a rules call here as that is
not my job, but its pretty obvious to me the unit disordered by the camels
which receives a combat cause of disorder owes a test. Do not confuse
disordered while disordered with recieves a combat cause of disorder while
disordered.

Don

[Don Coon]

> > So then we have been playing it wrong by requiring that a unit becoming
> > disordered in prep and then again in hth take a waiver test?>>
>
>
> Ok, let me get this all back under control...lol
>
> First, you have read the clarifications, yes? It makes my job SO much
more
> difficult when I get asked a question and the asker has not even read the
> rules. I am not a free rules-reading service. I am here for you when you
> think the rules, after you have read them, remain unclear. I am not here
> because you (the plural you) don't have the energy to crack the book. And
> the clarifications are the book as much as the book is.
>
> Here's the quotation I have taken the time to cut in from the
clarifications
> available on both this group and our website:
>
> "5.52 (Pg 31) Under "Combat-caused disorder", add the following after the
> bulleted list:
>
> "Note a body only takes one waver test from suffering a second disorder
from
> combat even if it suffers multiple combat-caused disorder results
> simultaneously."
>
> The rule from the book that make the body take the test says:
>
> "(SECOND DISORDER). Receiving a "become disordered" combat result while
> already disordered...."
>
> Please note that nowhere does it say that the reason the body is already
> disordered has to be from combat.
>
> I think that should do it. :)

Thanks Jon, that's how I have been ruling it here regarding camels and
elephants and terrain and such (I crack the book quite often and have read
and reread the clarifications).

However even with all the reading and rereading I have been treating Prep
disorder and any HTH disorder as two separate events (I thought, and still
do that HTH was a separate phase from prep and a receives combat cause of
disorder while disordered applied) and forcing a test. We will stop that
immediately? Is that what you are saying? Here is your text in the email
reply to Chris- "Combat Phase (prep, support, hand to hand)" Here is the
text of 3.2: 6. Preparatory shooting phase... 7. Charge phase... 8. Hand to
hand combat phase... So I beg the question, where is this 'combat phase'
you are talking to Chris about?

I am a bit foggy on how you consider Prep disorder and HTH disorder to be
simultaneous combat causes. Note the rule (cut and pasted from your
response to Chris):

"Note a body only takes one waver test from suffering a second disorder from
combat even if it suffers multiple combat-caused disorder results
simultaneously"

If you are saying Prep and HTH are simultaneous then by extension they are
simultaneous with charges (which occur between these 2 events), so when do
you adjudicate disorder caused by the act of charging (which is NOT a combat
cause)?

Not trying to be a pain in the rear, but you caught me off guard with this.
I thought I had it right and I apparantly do not.

How about this rare but possible scenario.

2E HC L,B,Sh 120p from 4E (2X2) HCm JLS, B, Sh receives 3 CPF from prep.
Becomes disordered and chooses to charge unprompted (was not skirmishing).
The charge into the camels (who stand to receive) is a cause of disorder
(not a combat cause) that they essentially ignore as they are disordered
anyway. They take 1 CPF and 2X casualties in HTH which is a combat cause of
disorder. Since the Prep disorder and HTH disorder are both combat causes
of disorder and per your response to Chris are simultaineous, they only
count as one cause and no waver test. Do I have it? The sticky part here
is the disorder caused by the camels has no effect on this? If the Cav had
only taken 2 CPF from prep (no disorder) and still chose to charge (becoming
disordered by the stink of the camels) then took 1 CPF and 2X from HTH they
would owe a waver? Seems like a frogged up timing issue. You say Prep and
HTH are all 'combat phase' and therefore any disorder received in either
phase is counted as one cause. Yet, charges (which in and of themselves can
cause disorder due to terrain or proximity of order sapping troop types)
come between prep and HTH. Should the camel stink effect cause the unit in
the first example to test? I personally think so since the unit in the
second example must test.

While I will play per your judgement and support it fully, I disagree with
it. I do not feel the written rules support it either. That is just on
mans opinion with no disrespect intended to you or your ruling. It is my
attempt to present my case for what its worth, and to get a feel for how you
arrived at your conclusions, while providing you insight into how I arrived
at mine.

Don

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/5/2003 00:11:05 Central Daylight Time,
rockd@... writes:

> I don't know if terrain disorder plus smell disorder (during any one
> phase) adds up to multiple disorders which would force a waver test.
>

Wow.

Ok, I'll keep at it as long as someone needs help. But since Doug doesn't
live in Texas, I can't use the 'let's take it offline' tactic....lol

IF a body receives ONE OR MORE 'become disordered' combat result(s) (there's
a list in the rules)

AND

said body is disordered at the moment it receives that result, NO MATTER WHAT
CAUSED IT TO BE DISORDERED AT THAT MOMENT

Then said body takes one waver test.

The above can only occur in the prep shooting or hand to hand combat phases,
which are two different phases in which combat results occur. There is no
combined prep shooting/hand to hand combat phase. Note that the charge phase
and the hand to hand phase are separate (3.2) and that disorder from support
shooting precedes hand to hand combat (11.214, a rule which everyone involved
in this 'question' should read...).

For the purposes of this waver test cause:

1. It does not matter what originally made the body disordered or when in
the past that occurred.

2. The body only takes one waver test no matter how many 'becomes
disordered' combat results it receives in the SAME prep or hth phase.

There. Go about your business, citizens.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

>Do not confuse disordered while disordered with
>recieves a combat cause of disorder while disordered.
>
>Don

Confusing? Sure
Complicated? You bet.

And they _like_ it that way!!!

--
Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

I live in Maryland. Now that Bob Ehrlich is Governer, we can expect a
reversal in the heroin addiction, syphilis, violent crime, and
political corruption spawned by the last 30+ years of liberal
Democrat autocracy.

[Doug]

>3. We all seem to agree that a unit that becomes disordered, for whatever
>reason, before becoming disordered in combat is
>required to take a waver test because of the second cause of combat induced
>disorder.

Your sentence structure is ambiguous. Do you mean to say that a
waver test is required due to
"a second cause which is 'Combat Induced Disorder' (in the same phase). "
or
"a cause which is 'The Second Combat Induced Disorder' (in the same phase). "

***
Again, clarifying your sentence structure:

>Jon responded that both terrain and smell caused disorder incurred during the
>charge would cause
A FIRST DISORDER, WHICH WOULD LEAD TO
>a waver test
IF THE UNIT
>Received a
>disordering effect in hth.

However, I do not believe that is what Jon actually said. And he
subsequently clarified his statement:
>ALL I said was that those three phases (Prep shooting, Charge, HTH) were all
>'combat' phases (as in a common name for all three), not that combat disorder
>in any one was somehow simultaneous with combat disorder in another.
>
>Jon

I don't know if terrain disorder plus smell disorder (during any one
phase) adds up to multiple disorders which would force a waver test.
--
Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

I live in Maryland. Now that Bob Ehrlich is Governer, we can expect a
reversal in the heroin addiction, syphilis, violent crime, and
political corruption spawned by the last 30+ years of liberal
Democrat autocracy.

[Mark Mallard]

Jon,

Sorry i started this thread.

Two very short answers required, just to clarify for everyone after the
various postings on this thread.

A unit becomes disordered in prep shooting.

In the same turn it gets a become disordered result from combat. Does it
test to waver?

In the same turn it is then burst through. Does it test to waver?

As i said, sorry i started this, but this should put it to bed. I reckon it
was because the events were not simultaneous in my mind that i thought each
result would cause a test.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/5/2003 07:17:10 Central Daylight Time,
markmallard77@... writes:

> Jon,
>
> Sorry i started this thread.>>

No need to be sorry...lol

>
> Two very short answers required, just to clarify for everyone after the
> various postings on this thread.
>
> A unit becomes disordered in prep shooting.
>
> In the same turn it gets a become disordered result from combat. Does it
> test to waver?

From hand to hand combat, I assume? Yes.

>
> In the same turn it is then burst through. Does it test to waver?

Yes, but that is the same waver test above as being burst through is just
another become disordered result from combat, so whatever the other one was
and the burst through are occurring in the same hth phase and therefore only
generate one waver test.

>
> As i said, sorry i started this, but this should put it to bed. I reckon it
>
> was because the events were not simultaneous in my mind that i thought each
>
> result would cause a test.
>

Prep and hth are not simultaneous. All the 'become disordered' combat
results that take place from hth ARE simultaneous with respect to each other
for this rule.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

Of all the things in this game that are a tad confusing, it is difficult to see
how anyone can confuse this portion.

**********

"5.52 (Pg 31) Under "Combat-caused disorder", add the following after the
bulleted list:

"Note a body only takes one waver test from suffering a second disorder from
combat even if it suffers multiple combat-caused disorder results
simultaneously."

**********

Prep shooting and combat, do not happen simultaneously. Ditto camel smell and
recoils from combat ... etc ...

Support shooting and break-through though, are simultaneous and are multiple
effects from the same result - or results from the same effect, if you will.

Greg

P.S. Jon ... I agree to your terms on the campaign rules and look forward to
helping out with
them.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

There. Go about your business, citizens.

Jon

LOL! Very Witty, almost as good as "That is a Tactical question!?!"

Kelly


---------------------------------
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Chriss]

Hi guys. I think I have now figured out (again) how to post, so I
have some questions for Jon.

1. Where do the rules specify that only troops with missile weapons
can skirmish. Can greg's front row 2HCT, back row JLS skirmish? If
not, why not.

2. When in the bound sequence need signals be made to "be acted upon
next bound" (assuming they are in sight)? For example, if a command
changes to atack from wait upon seeing the CinC "about face," can the
CinC turn 180 degrees in a staff move at the end of bound 1, and have
the subgen's command change to attack on bound 2? Same question again
for "waving banner". Can this be done in staff moves and obeyed next
bound?

3. Assume the example posted by Don a while back about flank charges.
If a unit is to the right and in front of you, such that he has room
(and a big enough gap) to fit on your flank and by wheeling to his
right can contact your left side edge with his right front corner,
can you counter charge and by wheeling 45 degrees to YOUR right
attempt to make your opponent hit you in front? I realize it might
not work, but can you attempt it?


Thanks.


Bill the Greek

[Greg Regets]

Geesh Bill ... are you trying to make Jon think I am skirmishing with
halbard guys? lololol

Could you email me offline at greg.regets@... so I will
have your email address. I have some thoughts on your Hoplite army to
share with you.

Greg


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "hrisikos8" <hrisikos@D...>
wrote:
> Hi guys. I think I have now figured out (again) how to post, so I
> have some questions for Jon.
>
> 1. Where do the rules specify that only troops with missile weapons
> can skirmish. Can greg's front row 2HCT, back row JLS skirmish? If
> not, why not.
>
> 2. When in the bound sequence need signals be made to "be acted
upon
> next bound" (assuming they are in sight)? For example, if a command
> changes to atack from wait upon seeing the CinC "about face," can
the
> CinC turn 180 degrees in a staff move at the end of bound 1, and
have
> the subgen's command change to attack on bound 2? Same question
again
> for "waving banner". Can this be done in staff moves and obeyed
next
> bound?
>
> 3. Assume the example posted by Don a while back about flank
charges.
> If a unit is to the right and in front of you, such that he has
room
> (and a big enough gap) to fit on your flank and by wheeling to his
> right can contact your left side edge with his right front corner,
> can you counter charge and by wheeling 45 degrees to YOUR right
> attempt to make your opponent hit you in front? I realize it might
> not work, but can you attempt it?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Bill the Greek

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/18/2003 10:43:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:

> Hi guys. I think I have now figured out (again) how to post, so I have some
questions for Jon.>>

I think I missed these the first time around, sorry.

> > 1. Where do the rules specify that only troops with missile weapons can
skirmish.>>

6.45 says: " It can be formed only if the
unit has enemy in its own shooting range or if enemy approaching second could
move to that range."

It could be said better and will in any subsequent printing.

<< Can greg's front row 2HCT, back row JLS skirmish? If
> > not, why not.>>

Nope. Non-missile elements cannot skirmish and mixed bodies may not skirmish.

> > 2. When in the bound sequence need signals be made to "be acted upon next
bound" (assuming they are in sight)?>>

At any point.

<< For example, if a command
> > changes to atack from wait upon seeing the CinC "about face," can the CinC
turn 180 degrees in a staff move at the end of bound 1, and have the subgen's
command change to attack on bound 2?>>

Yes.

<< Same question again > for "waving banner". Can this be done in staff moves
and obeyed next > bound?>>

Yes. You should read 4.53 again, also.

> > 3. Assume the example posted by Don a while back about flank charges. ...

I lost you on this one. Could you repost the example in full?

Jon

What's this! Someone else not affraid to run Hoplites? Fantastic. Power to
the polis brother!
Wanax

Greg Regets <gar@...> wrote:
Geesh Bill ... are you trying to make Jon think I am skirmishing with
halbard guys? lololol

Could you email me offline at greg.regets@... so I will
have your email address. I have some thoughts on your Hoplite army to
share with you.

Greg


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "hrisikos8" <hrisikos@D...>
wrote:
> Hi guys. I think I have now figured out (again) how to post, so I
> have some questions for Jon.
>
> 1. Where do the rules specify that only troops with missile weapons
> can skirmish. Can greg's front row 2HCT, back row JLS skirmish? If
> not, why not.
>
> 2. When in the bound sequence need signals be made to "be acted
upon
> next bound" (assuming they are in sight)? For example, if a command
> changes to atack from wait upon seeing the CinC "about face," can
the
> CinC turn 180 degrees in a staff move at the end of bound 1, and
have
> the subgen's command change to attack on bound 2? Same question
again
> for "waving banner". Can this be done in staff moves and obeyed
next
> bound?
>
> 3. Assume the example posted by Don a while back about flank
charges.
> If a unit is to the right and in front of you, such that he has
room
> (and a big enough gap) to fit on your flank and by wheeling to his
> right can contact your left side edge with his right front corner,
> can you counter charge and by wheeling 45 degrees to YOUR right
> attempt to make your opponent hit you in front? I realize it might
> not work, but can you attempt it?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Bill the Greek


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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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