Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/20/2003 07:35:26 Central Daylight Time,
rockd@... writes:
If you are looking towards 2nd edition, perhaps separating these
things would improve the game.
We will do a second printing to improve the production quality and give the
player more value and clean up typos, but the expendable rules (and any others)
will never change. Ever.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

>Personally, I find it quite clear between rush orders and the spirit of the
>sentence about moving so as not to put a friendly body in the way that the
>intent is not to permit scythed chariot owners to prevent their
>forward movement
>through completely unrealistic friendly 'blocking maneuvers'.--Jon


This is really a philosophy question. I've always wondered why
scythed chariots are not as completely controllable as any other unit
until such time as they begin to charge the enemy.

Certainly the driver doesn't want to get "too far" ahead of the
troops whose attack he is spearheading, and is awaiting the "go"
signal from the commander of those troops.

Packs of dogs or pigs awaiting ignition are certainly not as
controllable; but for some reason all such items were lumped together
in the Expendible category.

If you are looking towards 2nd edition, perhaps separating these
things would improve the game.

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Doug <rockd@p...> wrote:

>
> Certainly the driver doesn't want to get "too far" ahead of the
> troops whose attack he is spearheading, and is awaiting the "go"
> signal from the commander of those troops.
>
> Packs of dogs or pigs awaiting ignition are certainly not as
> controllable; but for some reason all such items were lumped
together
> in the Expendible category.
>
> If you are looking towards 2nd edition, perhaps separating these
> things would improve the game.


No, no, nooooo! Please, not my pigs. Ruses like this are all we
Greeks have got left.

On a serious note, here's a rules query: LMI peltasts have the pigs
(hidden unlit under their chitons). First, the rules say they MAY
light the pigs during the charge phase. Does this mean they may ONLY
do so as a charge or countercharge, or can they do so in prep fire or
any other time?
Second: Say some nasty knights charge the LMI, and the LMI want to
light pigs in countercharge. Must they test waver first? If they do
and shake, does this effect the pigs in any way, or do they
still "charge" the knights unshaken?
Lastly, if the LMI just stands and takes it, never deploying the
pigs, can the pigs just be saved for later, even after the LMI finish
this or some other combat?

I've always been guided in these matters by the notion that the pigs
are "not part of the Game" or "in play" until lit. What do you say?

And yes I have no fear in playing hoplites, but I wish they had pigs.
Any help coming along those lines Scott? If not, how about some other
Greek-type tricky ruse? Everybody already knows about my rock
avalanches.



Tex the Greek

[Bill Chriss]

I am reposting (as Mark did) to ask Jon for guidance re: my sneaky,
devious, Greek pigs. My own guesses at answers are below for
correction or confirmation by Jon:



> No, no, nooooo! Please, not my pigs. Ruses like this are all we
> Greeks have got left.
>
> On a serious note, here's a rules query: LMI peltasts have the
pigs
> (hidden unlit under their chitons). First, the rules say they MAY
> light the pigs during the charge phase. Does this mean they may
ONLY
> do so as a charge or countercharge, or can they do so in prep fire
or
> any other time?

Frankly, I can see several answers here, so I won't guess. Can
you "shoot" the pigs at enemy, or must they charge or countercharge
during charge movement?



> Second: Say some nasty knights charge the LMI, and the LMI want to
> light pigs in countercharge. Must they (the LMI) test waver first?

My answer here is "no" because they aren't responding to the charge,
the pigs are However, I acknowledge I can see arguments both ways
here.


If they do
> and shake, does this effect the pigs in any way, or do they
> still "charge" the knights unshaken?

Assuming, I'm wrong above, the answer here, I think, should clearly
be that pigs do not shake for the same reason impetuous foot
wouldn't, and because they are not even "in the game" until actually
lit, i.e., once their impetuous charge/countercharge is declared.
BTW, this brings up an interesting subject. I'm assuming that pigs
(unlike humans and horses) CAN (indeed must) count as impetuous even
in a countercharge. Correct?


> Lastly, if the LMI just stands and takes it, never deploying the
> pigs, can the pigs just be saved for later, even after the LMI
finish
> this or some other combat?


My answer is "yes" they can be saved for later. The corollary is that
if the "tending" unit is tired, disordered, or whatever, the pigs
aren't because, as i've said before:

>
> I've always been guided in these matters by the notion that the
pigs
> are "not part of the Game" or "in play" until lit. What do you say?


This also means that casualties, fatigue, and other attributes should
be recorded separately for the pigs and their "tender." Correct?


> And yes I have no fear in playing hoplites, but I wish they had
pigs.
> Any help coming along those lines Scott? If not, how about some
other
> Greek-type tricky ruse? Everybody already knows about my rock
> avalanches.
>


I still want more ruses for my hoplites. If not pigs, then a Trojan
Horse or something. Anyone have any ideas?

To respond to a post by Don (I think it was Don) about the recent
tourney in Arlington: Under the same rationale above, a player would
NOT identify pigs when specifying and describing units to his
opponent at the beginning of the battle. That would entirely defeat
the purpose of the pigs. Rather, the Greek should clearly mark on his
game sheet (as with avalanches or ambushes) which of his units
contains the unlit pigs, so as to avoid later arguments. Correct?

One last question/proposed answer re: pigs. You do not have to
specify which ELEMENT in the "tender" unit has the pigs. They are
assumed to be distributed throughout, such that ANY front rank
element may light and release the pigs, the pig body being
represented on the table by a base of pigs placed in front of that
element, but signifying all the pigs held by the "tender" unit. This
means that pigs work best being "tended" by units with wide frontage,
so the Greek, in effect, has pigs that can deploy anywhere across the
entire frontage of the unit, but only once, and only one element. Is
this Correct? Thanks.


Bill the Greek

[joncleaves]

It is my fate to spend 90% of my time answering questions about stuff used in 1%
of games....<sigh> :)

> LMI peltasts have the pigs (hidden unlit under their chitons). First, the
rules say they MAY light the pigs during the charge phase. Does this mean they
may ONLY
> > do so as a charge or countercharge, or can they do so in prep fire or any
other time?>>

Charge only.

> > Second: Say some nasty knights charge the LMI, and the LMI want to light
pigs in countercharge. Must they (the LMI) test waver first? >>

Yes.

> If they do and shake, does this effect the pigs in any way, or do they still
"charge" the knights unshaken?>>

It does not affect them. If the foot were shaken already and then broke, they
could not release the pigs.

<< BTW, this brings up an interesting subject. I'm assuming that pigs (unlike
humans and horses) CAN (indeed must) count as impetuous even in a countercharge.
Correct?>>

Yes, they always 'count' as an impetuous mounted charge, but note that this
isn't the combat effect they produce. 16.27.


> > Lastly, if the LMI just stands and takes it, never deploying the pigs, can
the pigs just be saved for later, even after the LMI finish this or some other
combat?>>
>

Yes.

> This also means that casualties, fatigue, and other attributes should
> be recorded separately for the pigs and their "tender." Correct? >>

No. The only combat effect the enemy can produce on the pigs is support
shooting which reduces their combat effect v. mounted. 16.27.

<<Rather, the Greek should clearly mark on his
> game sheet (as with avalanches or ambushes) which of his units
> contains the unlit pigs, so as to avoid later arguments. Correct?>>

Correct.

> One last question/proposed answer re: pigs. You do not have to > specify which
ELEMENT in the "tender" unit has the pigs. They are assumed to be distributed
throughout, such that ANY front rank element may light and release the pigs,
the pig body being represented on the table by a base of pigs placed in front
of that element, but signifying all the pigs held by the "tender" unit. Is
this Correct? Thanks.>>

Correct.