Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

Since I know next to nothing about knights, can someone enlighten me
on the cost/benefit ratio of SHK shielded vs. shieldLESS? what is
the consensus on whether to buy the SH?


Greek

[Todd Schneider]

IMO the difference is that Shield less makes you a bit more vulnerable to
shooting, so a large foot bow unit or LC units working in tandem may shoot
you to a halt or force you to charge before you’re ready to. For example a
4E unit of B at 240 P would be 8@2, or 16 casualties. If the shooter rolls
up 1, to 8@3 that’s 20, and if you’re a 2E Unit of SHK, your taking 3CPF,
which means your most likely charging unprompted and your disordered, unless
your beyond 160p and then your taking a waver test.



It’s a lesson I am learning trying to run as I am running Shield less
Armenian EHC’s with a Marian List I am trying out.



Truthfully, I don’t have my book with me so I am not sure if you count
shield less on the support shot or not. Jon?



Combat wise I don’t think it matters that much unless you lose on the die
roll, because the first bound of combat Mounted SHK with L always count as
shielded. But, then again I am relatively new to the game, and my recent
experience with Knights has been more as the Target of the charge. 8-)



Todd





_____

From: hrisikos8 [mailto:hrisikos@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 9:53 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] SHK



Since I know next to nothing about knights, can someone enlighten me
on the cost/benefit ratio of SHK shielded vs. shieldLESS? what is
the consensus on whether to buy the SH?


Greek






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greek,
I hope you are well:)
The none scientific answer is " Just but'em".
Kn. vs Kn is always a "push" ie. one will push the other back, a die roll. If
you get pushed back the other guy counts you as SH less, if you did not buy
them, this could be bad.
The only other time, that I can think of at the moment is if you wished to go
two wide after a dismount.
David

hrisikos8 <hrisikos@...> wrote:
Since I know next to nothing about knights, can someone enlighten me
on the cost/benefit ratio of SHK shielded vs. shieldLESS? what is
the consensus on whether to buy the SH?


Greek


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shieldless EHC and SHK are two entirely different animals, yet they
do not want to be shot. BTW, can't you take the armenians as SHC? I
would :)

First your Armenians are probably one of the toughest troop types to
run. Non-skirmishing shieldless targets essentially. You take
bowfire at a 3, so the typical 4E RgD LMI B unit will hit you at
160paces with 8@3. Wham! You are disordered and must charge.
Support shot if waver is passed and now you are 16@1, wham wham!
Unless you roll up your tired, disordered lancers will only stick,
bound off or rout. None are good for the next bound's activities.

SHK take the same shooting at 2. Still 8@2 is enough to make you
charge or waver.

Like all mounted, EHC and SHK don't want to be shot. So learn to run
them in tandem with a shooting unit. The shooters will force the
enemy to shoot at them, thus you avoid the prep shot. You will still
be hitting him with a hurting, so try to get him tired through
shooting first :)

Personnally, I just buy the damned shields. I end up fighting in HTH
every game with anything from IrgE LMI to IrgA SHK, so I want a
shield if possible.
Wanax

[John Murphy]

I was about to ask this very exact question for my HYWE so I am glad
someone else did it first.

I'll take a dig at answering it too, just to provide more talking
points, but see the note at the bottom because my practice (based on
precious little experience with them yet) disagrees with the
apparent results of my analysis - either one or the other is likely
flawed.

For a 2E SHK unit 12 casualties are required to force a waver/charge
and 18 are required to disorder (also forcing the waver/charge). As
I learned from the whole LMI/LHI discussion, the question to ask is
not what the factors are for a particular case but rather how many
shooters are required to do this for the shielded and unshielded
case? It may simply make no real difference after all in which case
you are paying 12 points per unit (likely 60-100 or more for your
army) on something that you are not really using.

So let's see. All this will assume even dice and 1E frontage (never
a good idea I know).

SHK+Sh SHK
JLS,D,B +1 +2
S,SS,LB +2 +3
CB +1 +2

?@+1=12or18
8or12 shooting figs
?@+2=12or18
6or9 shooting figs
?@+3=12or18
5or7 shooting figs

But, we are concerned with prep-shooting at almost always >80p, or
long range (or out of range) for anything but S, LB and CB. The
issue for support shooting also matters in terms of being 0 versus -
1 versus -2 in HtH, but that is a different analysis and then you
would obviously have to consider all weapons at full effect.

so, shooting figs to waver-charge/disorder are actually...
SHK+Sh SHK
B 16/24 12/18
S,LB 6/9 5/7 LB doubled >120p, S ineffective > 160p
CB 8/12 6/9 doubled > 120p

Lets examine the results for a 1E frontage.
Against B no unit puts out >10. Against LB any unit that puts out 5
also puts out 6 (and no unit puts out 10 or 12). Same for S. Against
CB any unit that puts out 6 also puts out 8 (and no unit puts out
>.

So it hardly seems worth taking the extra 60-100 points for your
army for something that makes no apparent difference on a 1E
frontage at normal prep shooting ranges.

(btw against HG, fire,Art the Sh is obviously a total waste)

That said, I have always taken the shields for HYWE SHK. Part of the
reason is that you never know if you are going to get the fire to
split such that you are only facing 1E frontage of enemy with a 2E
SHK unit. The above analysis is fine as far as it goes but real
situations just never work out the way they seem when you try to lay
out all the numbers in advance like this. On the other hand, it may
be that with more experience playing SHK I might switch. After all,
you typically have a sizeable number of your own shooters with an
SHK army and this usually keeps prep fire off your knights anyway.
Then I would be more worried about losing an extra factor in HtH due
to increased effect of support shots. Against a beefy kind of unit
that puts out enough firepower to worry about in this regard the
extra factors you need to be able to break the unit become critical.
But once again, why not pour longbow fire into them until they are
tired shooting, then charge with the SHK?

But I do think for 60-100 points it is worth looking at a more
complete way of analyzing this.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Schneider"
<thresh1642@s...> wrote:
> 4E unit of B at 240 P would be 8@2, or 16 casualties. If the
shooter rolls
> up 1, to 8@3 that's 20, and if you're a 2E Unit of SHK, your
taking 3CPF,
> which means your most likely charging unprompted and your
disordered, unless
> your beyond 160p and then your taking a waver test.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Bill,

If your gonna break the bank for SHK, why not spend the extra 2 points per
figure for a shield? I suggest you look at the chart and make your determination
from there.

kelly

hrisikos8 <hrisikos@...> wrote:
Since I know next to nothing about knights, can someone enlighten me
on the cost/benefit ratio of SHK shielded vs. shieldLESS? what is
the consensus on whether to buy the SH?


Greek


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Good Point Boyd! In fact I think this is EXCELLENT advice, I just hope Bill
doesn't take it so that the next time I face him in Texas, I can shoot the pooh
out of the bear in him!

kelly

Wanax Andron <spocksleftball@...> wrote:
Shieldless EHC and SHK are two entirely different animals, yet they
do not want to be shot. BTW, can't you take the armenians as SHC? I
would :)

First your Armenians are probably one of the toughest troop types to
run. Non-skirmishing shieldless targets essentially. You take
bowfire at a 3, so the typical 4E RgD LMI B unit will hit you at
160paces with 8@3. Wham! You are disordered and must charge.
Support shot if waver is passed and now you are 16@1, wham wham!
Unless you roll up your tired, disordered lancers will only stick,
bound off or rout. None are good for the next bound's activities.

SHK take the same shooting at 2. Still 8@2 is enough to make you
charge or waver.

Like all mounted, EHC and SHK don't want to be shot. So learn to run
them in tandem with a shooting unit. The shooters will force the
enemy to shoot at them, thus you avoid the prep shot. You will still
be hitting him with a hurting, so try to get him tired through
shooting first :)

Personnally, I just buy the damned shields. I end up fighting in HTH
every game with anything from IrgE LMI to IrgA SHK, so I want a
shield if possible.
Wanax





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