Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Marty (or anyone)

How similar are the Greek (Hoplite or Hellenistic) lists to 7th? I
have a DBM hoplite army I'd like to run as Spartans. IS ther eany
Warrior list that woudl allow me to run them as the Agesilaus in Asia
option with supporting light cavalry and lots of skirmishes/peltasts?

Also, do any greek lists have lots of Reg B peltats? or do some
Spartans get Reg B Ekdromoi?

I know I will have to buy an army book, but nobody sells them
directly in Canberra (yet).

thanks

Scott

I just realised this is a stupid question, because the Classical list
book is not out yet. Is it kosher in Warrior to build 1500 point
lists on the Fast Warrior lists? (eg. double all the maximums?)

Scott Elaurant

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/9/2004 19:09:33 Central Standard Time,
Scott.Elaurant@... writes:
How similar are the Greek (Hoplite or Hellenistic) lists to 7th? I
have a DBM hoplite army I'd like to run as Spartans. IS ther eany
Warrior list that woudl allow me to run them as the Agesilaus in Asia
option with supporting light cavalry and lots of skirmishes/peltasts?

Also, do any greek lists have lots of Reg B peltats? or do some
Spartans get Reg B Ekdromoi?
Classical Warrior is our last book and won't be out til the beginning of next
year.

The NASAMW lists that contain all these and are the basic start point for our
list books are in the files section of this yahoo group.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

I just realised this is a stupid question, because the Classical list
book is not out yet. Is it kosher in Warrior to build 1500 point
lists on the Fast Warrior lists? (eg. double all the maximums?)

>What local tournament organizers allow is up to them but to give you a short
answer of how this would be generally handled here in the States:

>It wouldn't be allowed. There are plenty of classical lists floating around
(old WRG, NASAMW revisions to old WRG, new WRG, Book of Hosts) that adequately
cover the period. That's one reason why Clasical Warrior is last on the to do
list, the material has been sifted thru a bunch.

Scott
List Ho

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "scott_elaurant"
<Scott.Elaurant@d...> wrote:
> Marty (or anyone)
>
> How similar are the Greek (Hoplite or Hellenistic) lists to 7th? I
> have a DBM hoplite army I'd like to run as Spartans. IS ther eany
> Warrior list that woudl allow me to run them as the Agesilaus in
Asia
> option with supporting light cavalry and lots of
skirmishes/peltasts?
>
> Also, do any greek lists have lots of Reg B peltats? or do some
> Spartans get Reg B Ekdromoi?
>
> I know I will have to buy an army book, but nobody sells them
> directly in Canberra (yet).
>
> thanks
>
> Scott


Scott:


As I have posted here before, I would suggest you check my article
and accompanying Later Greek Hoplite Army List in Spearpoint Issue
(Oct-Nov 1997, I think). I don't wish to take Scott's name in vain,
but I've been allowed to play this list at Historicon and also at
other local tournaments by their officials. I should quickly add that
none of my opponents have ever complained (for one thing, it's still
a tough tournament army to play and I lose a lot). If you want to e-
mail me offline, I can send you copies of the list and article.

The list does not include Spartans, as these are sufficiently
covered by NASAMW. It deals with Athenian and Theban and Thessalian
Armies of the 4th century. As such, it does include many Reg "B"
and "IRR B" Thessalian and Phokian peltasts, as well as a few loose
order Reg B Thebans. The Hutchby & Clark Thessalian list offers much
the same selection of troops (high quality Peltasts with some
hoplites), but, if I do say so myself, I believe my list is more
thoroughly researched and tied to historical reality. Also, it fills
a gaping hole in ythe current published lists: the combined
Theban/Thessalian/ army of Epaminondas in the campaigns of 371- 365.

I hope this helps. If your tournament organizer won't let you use
my published Spearpoint list, then I recommend: 1. Barbecue a lamb in
his front yard over an open pit; 2. Tell him he has blown his chance
to be named an honorary Greek; and 3. Use the Hutchby & Clark
Thessalian list.

Forgive the rank boosterism regarding my list, but I will take
ANY opportunity to remind FHE (hint, hint, hint) that we Greeks are
out here and would respectfully request that our historical research
be acknowledged when Classical Warrior comes out. It will at least
give us a chance (to paraphrase Leonidas) to die in the shade! If
Maccabean Jewish Peltasts and Hellenistic Spartan thureophoroi
serving tyrants and the irreverent Phokians are Reg B, it would be
the heighth of ahistoricism for Thessalians, "the greatest javelinmen
in the world" according to the Spartophile Athenian Xenophon, to be
rated any less. There, I've had my say. Glad to debate any takers.
Come on, my cavalry is still shieldless, and I got no knights and no
missile power. I don't even get incindiary pigs before 275 B.C. So
humor me on this one!


Hoplites Ho!


Greek

[Mike Bard]

I'm working on a Late Hoplite list for Cold Wars (go to
http://www.deep-strike.com/Product/gallery/ancients/hoplights.htm for
pictures) and would be interested in the list (and other ideas as to how to
make Hoplites work).

Michael Bard

Go Greeks Go!

> As I have posted here before, I would suggest you check my article
> and accompanying Later Greek Hoplite Army List in Spearpoint Issue
> (Oct-Nov 1997, I think). I don't wish to take Scott's name in vain,
> but I've been allowed to play this list at Historicon and also at
> other local tournaments by their officials. I should quickly add that
> none of my opponents have ever complained (for one thing, it's still
> a tough tournament army to play and I lose a lot). If you want to e-
> mail me offline, I can send you copies of the list and article.
>
> The list does not include Spartans, as these are sufficiently
> covered by NASAMW. It deals with Athenian and Theban and Thessalian
> Armies of the 4th century. As such, it does include many Reg "B"
> and "IRR B" Thessalian and Phokian peltasts, as well as a few loose
> order Reg B Thebans. The Hutchby & Clark Thessalian list offers much
> the same selection of troops (high quality Peltasts with some
> hoplites), but, if I do say so myself, I believe my list is more
> thoroughly researched and tied to historical reality. Also, it fills
> a gaping hole in ythe current published lists: the combined
> Theban/Thessalian/ army of Epaminondas in the campaigns of 371- 365.
>
> I hope this helps. If your tournament organizer won't let you use
> my published Spearpoint list, then I recommend: 1. Barbecue a lamb in
> his front yard over an open pit; 2. Tell him he has blown his chance
> to be named an honorary Greek; and 3. Use the Hutchby & Clark
> Thessalian list.
>
> Forgive the rank boosterism regarding my list, but I will take
> ANY opportunity to remind FHE (hint, hint, hint) that we Greeks are
> out here and would respectfully request that our historical research
> be acknowledged when Classical Warrior comes out. It will at least
> give us a chance (to paraphrase Leonidas) to die in the shade! If
> Maccabean Jewish Peltasts and Hellenistic Spartan thureophoroi
> serving tyrants and the irreverent Phokians are Reg B, it would be
> the heighth of ahistoricism for Thessalians, "the greatest javelinmen
> in the world" according to the Spartophile Athenian Xenophon, to be
> rated any less. There, I've had my say. Glad to debate any takers.
> Come on, my cavalry is still shieldless, and I got no knights and no
> missile power. I don't even get incindiary pigs before 275 B.C. So
> humor me on this one!
>
>
> Hoplites Ho!
>
>
> Greek
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bard" <mwbard@r...>
wrote:
> I'm working on a Late Hoplite list for Cold Wars (go to
> http://www.deep-strike.com/Product/gallery/ancients/hoplights.htm
for
> pictures) and would be interested in the list (and other ideas as
to how to
> make Hoplites work).
>
> Michael Bard
>
> Go Greeks Go!
>
>


Michael:

I checked your website. Ti orea eine to stratossou!, i.e, How very
fine your army is! Fantastic paint jobs. Look like 15mm, am I right?
I noticed some confusion on your site about Spartan armies and dates.
A couple of clarifications thant might help you: 1. You say that your
peltasts are a little late for the Peloponessian War. However, that
may not be correct. I understand that you're probably referring to
your favorite Spartans, but Demosthenes clearly used peltasts and
psiloi to great effect at Sphakteria and in his earlier
Acarnanian/Aetolian campaign of 426. Also, peltasts armed with JLS
but not LTS go back at least a hundred years before that. However, I
confess that I don't know to what extent Spartans employed them,
since I'm not a big fan of the Spartans. 2. The Spartan army you are
thinking of with the exotic barbarian auxilliaries is, I think,
either the army of Agesilaus or Lysander in Thrace or Asia in the
390's, or more likely, the Sicilian army before, during, and after
the Peloponessian War (yikes, there are even Spaniards involved!). 3.
Your quandary as to the Spartan army of the 360's is understandable.
This was the army that was DEFEATED by Epaminondas the Theban (my man)
in the campaigns of 371-365, specifically at the battles of Leuctra
and Mantinea. My list covers the Theban/Thessalian/ and Athenian
armies of this post-Peloponessian War period thru the Macedonian
conquest of 336.

I've e-mailed my list and article offline to Scott. i'll do the
same for you, if you e-mail me offline. Or, better yet, if someone
can explain to me how to place a word format file on the listserver's
files section (and, of course, only if it's okay with Jon and Scott
H), I can post the materials there for use/critique/evaluation by
Warrior Grecophiles everywhere. Is this appropriate Jon/Scott, or
not? I don't want to take up the list's storage files to no good
purpose, or if it would be inappropriate to do so.



Greek

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 2/11/2004 3:46:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hrisikos@... writes:

> Or, better yet, if someone
> can explain to me how to place a word format file on the listserver's
> files section (and, of course, only if it's okay with Jon and Scott
> H), I can post the materials there for use/critique/evaluation by
> Warrior Grecophiles everywhere. Is this appropriate
> Jon/Scott, or
> not?>>

It is exactly the sort of thing one should be putting in the files section.

Click on files, click on add files, browse to where the file is on your machine
and click on upload. :)

Jon

[Mike Bard]

Actually they're 25mm figures from various companies.

The army is conceptionally the Syracusan army raised/trained by Gylippus. I
also want something to have a chance in a tournament (all me biased). The
'Spartans' represent a personal guard especially trained/drilled by
Gylippus. The cavalry is Syracusan cavalry. The celts/spaniards are
barabians hired by Syracuse. Yes, given the date it would probably be
better to use the Syracusan list that starts at 420, but I don't have enough
cavalry yet (I've wanted to do a hoplite army for almost 20 years and
finally have enough painting skill to do it right).

Also, I was planning to do Athenian first, but somebody had to do Sparta
(the enemy) within the group I gamed, and being noble and self sacrificing I
decided to. Eventually I want to have enough hoplites to supply both sides.

I agree with Sphakteria but it also depends on the definition of the
peltasts. Would they have been specially trained loose order skirmishes
(LMI) then, or would they have been more open order (LI)? Would they have
had LTS? It really boils down to definitions, and what the existing lists
state for tournament play.

Finally, though I knew of Epaminondas, and Leuktra, I didn't know about the
Barbarian auxiliaries at that point. Thanks.

Michael Bard

> I checked your website. Ti orea eine to stratossou!, i.e, How very
> fine your army is! Fantastic paint jobs. Look like 15mm, am I right?
> I noticed some confusion on your site about Spartan armies and dates.
> A couple of clarifications thant might help you: 1. You say that your
> peltasts are a little late for the Peloponessian War. However, that
> may not be correct. I understand that you're probably referring to
> your favorite Spartans, but Demosthenes clearly used peltasts and
> psiloi to great effect at Sphakteria and in his earlier
> Acarnanian/Aetolian campaign of 426. Also, peltasts armed with JLS
> but not LTS go back at least a hundred years before that. However, I
> confess that I don't know to what extent Spartans employed them,
> since I'm not a big fan of the Spartans. 2. The Spartan army you are
> thinking of with the exotic barbarian auxilliaries is, I think,
> either the army of Agesilaus or Lysander in Thrace or Asia in the
> 390's, or more likely, the Sicilian army before, during, and after
> the Peloponessian War (yikes, there are even Spaniards involved!). 3.
> Your quandary as to the Spartan army of the 360's is understandable.
> This was the army that was DEFEATED by Epaminondas the Theban (my man)
> in the campaigns of 371-365, specifically at the battles of Leuctra
> and Mantinea. My list covers the Theban/Thessalian/ and Athenian
> armies of this post-Peloponessian War period thru the Macedonian
> conquest of 336.

In a message dated 2/11/2004 5:53:50 AM Central Standard Time,
WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com writes:
Re: Sling and Greek/Spartan lists?

How does one get a copy of the Slingshot Greek Hoplite article mentioned?
Matt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Chriss]

> >
> > Michael Bard
> >
> > Go Greeks Go!
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael:
>
> of course, only if it's okay with Jon and Scott
> H), I can post the materials there for use/critique/evaluation by
> Warrior Grecophiles everywhere. Is this appropriate Jon/Scott, or
> not? I don't want to take up the list's storage files to no good
> purpose, or if it would be inappropriate to do so.
>
>
>
> Greek


By popular demand, a new Greek Hoplite research article (latest
amended version) and accompanying army list (translated since its
publication in 1997 into Warrior format, i.e., costs/minimums are per
base) are now in the files section as a document titled:
Greek_Armies_of_the_4th_Century.
Enjoy!

Greek

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, zajacmwz@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/2004 5:53:50 AM Central Standard Time,
> WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Re: Sling and Greek/Spartan lists?
>
> How does one get a copy of the Slingshot Greek Hoplite article
mentioned?
> Matt
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Matt:

Not Slingshot, Spearpoint. The newest amended version (translated
into Warrior format) is now on the files portion of this egroup. Log
on to the WarriorRules egroup at yahoogroups.com, click on the files
section and open the file titled Greek_Armies_of_the_4th_Century.
If you have trouble downloading let me know.


Greek

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "hrisikos8" <hrisikos@D...>
wrote:
> Forgive the rank boosterism regarding my list, but I will take
> ANY opportunity to remind FHE (hint, hint, hint) that we Greeks are
> out here and would respectfully request that our historical
research
> be acknowledged when Classical Warrior comes out.

There, I've had my say. Glad to debate any takers.
> Come on, my cavalry is still shieldless, and I got no knights and
no
> missile power. I don't even get incindiary pigs before 275 B.C. So
> humor me on this one!
> Hoplites Ho!
> Greek

I thought I was rabid about hoplites :)

Actually I'm far more interested in seeing LTS in general have more
of an impact on the game, but I fear the only salvation is if the FHE
see fit to give hoplites the same privledge as the Scotts and allow 2
full ranks always. I certainly know I'd have a huge RgD MI Hoplite
army if they did. Is there anything more wonderful than shieldless
MC JLS? I didn't think so.... :)

Wanax