Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

OK, I've gone back and revisited the Song list. Rather than comment on someone's
particular 1600 point take on it, I'll make some general comments that may help
in constructing a list.

This is actually a pretty solid list, better than I remembered it being last
time I browsed through Oriental Warrior. I still think either Later Tang or 10
Independent States offer better lists in this style, but Song is not a bad
choice.

You should think of any list in terms of what its unique attributes are. If you
find yourself able to think of tactics for those attributes, then you've found
a good list (for you). If you find yourself trying to work around the unique
attributes, and thus treating them as liabilities,then you should probably find
another list.

So: what has Song got going for it? Well, it has an abundance of cheap, 4 to a
stand archers. In my opinion, that's an excellent thing. It has both cavalry
and foot who can get firelance. That is also an excellent thing, as there are
only one or two other lists that get that combination (Ming, and maybe one
other list). You can get a fair amount of decent skirmishers: lots of LI, and
some LC. The LC is very high quality; pretty much the best in the game.

Things to watch out for: don't take so many skirmishers that they get in the way
of your large blocks of archers. Dense shooting is one of your great strengths,
so don't crowd your shooting lanes with your own light troops. You'd prefer not
to be outscouted, and you'd prefer to be able to delay and harrass where you are
"refusing" the fight, but you don't need a whole lot of skirmishers with this
army.

Don't put your firelance in large units. Large units are line units. Their job
is to not rout, not necessarily to win. Smaller units are your strike units,
and you should give them every advantage. Also, firelance should be in units of
the highest morale class you can give them, and should be of the heaviest armor
you can give them (at least in the front rank).

Putting this all together, I'd say you want a main battle line of archers. I'd
probably go with some 12 stand units of MI, and some 6 stand units of LMI.
Leave all the MI units as D class, and consider upgrading some of the LMI units
to C class, but only if you can spare the points. Nothing wrong with making all
the archers Ds.

You have to buy some swordsmen, and that's a pity, as they aren't very useful.
Don't spend any more points on them than you have to. Give them shields in the
front, but leave them as Ds. Buy one ditched palisade, expect to put it against
one flank, and expect the swordsmen to live behind it.

You'll need some LI. At a minimum you want 4 units, 2 stands each, of Reg D LI
B. I'd probably add one 6 stand unit upgraded to Reg C, with shields in the
front.

Take the Mongol LC. Make it into 4 units of 2 stands, upgrade all to Reg B, and
give them all JLS and Sh in the front.

You're going to end up with something in the range of 30 to 35 scouting points,
which is plenty. The only people who will then outscout you will have so much
cav that your archers will happily face them, even outscouted.

Your strike force is going to be 4 units. Two of them will be subgenerals (your
CinC should be a reserve unit, not a strike unit), entirely A class, EHC in the
front, firelance throughout. Your other two strike units will be spearmen,
upgraded to HI in the front, upgraded from Ds to Cs to Bs (meaning you'll have
to upgrade enough of your archers to Cs to allows this, as only half your total
C stands can be upgraded to Bs). The spearmen units should be 4 stands each, and
have firelance throughout.

Your CinC should be Reg A HC L,B,Sh, 2 stands.

This overall combination gives you a two-pronged approach that should give you
some recourse against just about any opponent. If your opponent is primarily
mounted, then he's going to hate dealing with your massed archers. Shoot away,
holding your firelance foot and your cav in reserve awaiting whatever
disruptions your shooting creates.

If your opponent is primarily foot, then you have four units that are very tough
against enemy foot: firelance-armed EHC with generals that are never uneasy, and
firelance-armed HI. You'll have to follow a counter-punching strategy in this
case, seeing where your opponent commits his foot attack and countering by
bringing up your strike force to meet it.

Against foot opponents there are several things to keep in mind. First, it's
difficult to coordinate your cav and your spearmen. They can't charge together,
somebody will have to charge first and then the other will have to charge in
after. Whether the spearmen or the cav should go in first is very situational.

Second, your archers will do just fine on their own against irregular foot. They
have a good chance of causing a waver test in prep shooting, and their support
shot gets to combine with their hand to hand for total CPF, which then gets
doubled for irregular foot. So you have an excellent chance to do massive
damage the first bound irregular foot charge in, meaning that the foot will
quickly find themselves in danger of exhaustion.

Third, your archers can actually contribute in subsequent bounds of hand to
hand. Let's say your EHC charge in and recoil and disorder a foot opponent that
is MI or LMI in the front rank. In the next bound, any exposed elements of that
opponent can be shot at in support shooting, at a pretty decent factor (bow vs.
MI = 2; -2 for in contact; +1 for shielded but disordered; net factor of 1).

Getting decisive results quickly will be something of a challenge. Shooting
takes time to take effect, sometimes several bounds waiting for the right "up
2" roll. And your strike units are going to beat lots of opponents, but rout
very few opponents at contact. You need time to grind people down. So force
march your LI, and at least some of your LC. This will help you establish
forward momentum and pressure on your opponent.

The LC can be a useful extra threat. Living in gaps between large archer blocks,
they should not be especially vulnerable to shooting. As B class, they can
counter effectively as a last resort. As regulars, they cover a huge "zone of
control". As Mongols, they fight in a rank and a half when charging, meaning
that they are a real threat to do some damage on a flank charge against an
unwary (or unlucky) opponent.

Overall, a pretty solid army, and one that should have chances against any
opponent. Yes, Ewan is right that Alexandrian Imperial probably has the upper
hand in a matchup between Alex Imperials and Song, but if I were the
Alexandrian player I wouldn't be "drooling" at this prospect. It would still be
a tough fight, and one with plenty of opportunity for the Alexandrian player to
get it wrong.

In historical matchups, Song should be very tough indeed. They fought mainly
horse archer armies, and so long as the flanks can be adequately protected,
there's little a horse archer army can do against the Song.

Have fun with it; you'll certainly learn a lot about Warrior by trying this kind
of an army.


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

Just tried fiddling with a 1600 point variant. Now I remember what the problem
is with this list:

Only half your archer stands can be MI or LMI; the other half must be LI. That
means if you want, say, 24 stands of MI (2 48 figure units), you have to take
24 stands of LI. You really don't want to do that. This list needs a max of
about 12 stands of LI.

The result is you either end up filling out the line with unadorned MI LTS,Sh
guys, or you don't take up enough frontage.

Overall, the "half must be LI" requirement is a show-stopper. Play another list.

There you go, Ewan, I'm being brutish and blunt on your behalf.


-Mark

[Ewan McNay]

Quoting Mark Stone <mark@...>:
> There you go, Ewan, I'm being brutish and blunt on your behalf.

Ah, Mark. We'll make a Grinch of you yet .

First, thanks to Asif, Ewan, and Mark for their helpful comments. I
will still play this list a few times at least!

The main reason for taking Song is we are playing period games, so
I'll be fighting traditional Song enemies (like the Mongols...talk
about horse archers...!), so I'd like to give it a try.

Also, it will help me get a better feel fro the rules. In the long
run, I may end up going with Tang instead...

Again, thanks to all for the help and good advice!

Cheers,
Dan

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
>
> Just tried fiddling with a 1600 point variant. Now I remember what
the problem
> is with this list:
>
> Only half your archer stands can be MI or LMI; the other half must
be LI. That
> means if you want, say, 24 stands of MI (2 48 figure units), you
have to take
> 24 stands of LI. You really don't want to do that. This list needs a
max of
> about 12 stands of LI.
>
> The result is you either end up filling out the line with unadorned
MI LTS,Sh
> guys, or you don't take up enough frontage.
>
> Overall, the "half must be LI" requirement is a show-stopper. Play
another list.
>
> There you go, Ewan, I'm being brutish and blunt on your behalf.
>
>
> -Mark
>