Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

How can I give my close order army more room on the
board? Particularly in FW, where I get no LC or LI in
the 1st crusader list.

Also, as a general topic for discussion, in what way
do list folks manuver their armies during initial
march moves so that the mounted remain behind the
foot, yet do not leave gaps in the foot line where the
mounted were to start with. In other words, how can I
move close order foot so that they remain in front of
my mounted with less than one element gaps, yet still
get my mounted to stay within 240 of the battleline?

boyd


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[Ewan McNay]

Wanax Andron wrote:
>
> How can I give my close order army more room on the
> board? Particularly in FW, where I get no LC or LI in
> the 1st crusader list.

My initial reaction to both of these (above and below) questions is 'why
would you want to?'

Given a close-order army, you wish to close the board down rather than
opening it up; once you get committed to fighting across the table
frontage, you're playing your opponent's game.

Or, are you talking about depth? This is more of a concern - avoiding
being pinned down before you get set up. There are obvious solutions -
force-marching, use of terrain (e.g. woods which might be hiding
pigrims, which will limit opponents' wish to come forward; less useful
in FW where it's a set list) but honestly, again, a decent initial setup
should obviate the need for much rearrangement.

What am I missing in your need?

> Also, as a general topic for discussion, in what way
> do list folks manuver their armies during initial
> march moves so that the mounted remain behind the
> foot, yet do not leave gaps in the foot line where the
> mounted were to start with. In other words, how can I
> move close order foot so that they remain in front of
> my mounted with less than one element gaps, yet still
> get my mounted to stay within 240 of the battleline?

This one I am not sure that I even understand. You want to have a
battleline composed of foot units without gaps for your cavalry to join
them? WHY?? I mean, you could start out that way if you wanted....?
Or, is the problem that you wish to march only twice with your army and
then stop? No problem - just march the cav on 4 and 3, bring the foot
up to join on 2 and 1. Ummm - no, I still don't see what you're really
trying to achieve. Taking your question literally, though, the answer
would be to deploy your cav facing parallel to the long base edge so
that they require two march segments to get into their 'initial
position' - and then the whole army moves forward en bloc. but I still
don't see the point. :(

E

[Patrick Byrne]

Turn your cav 90 degrees to the line of battle and move them +2 march
segments from the close order infantry. So in mar phase 4 and 3 they move
themselves, then in mar phase 2 and 1 the move with (after) the infantry.
Don't forget the 45 degrees wheel that are necessary.

The cav only need to move back +1 segment if you want them behind Reg
LMI/LHI.

OR

Forch march your infantry
-PB


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanax Andron" <vercengetorix@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 10:06 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Tactical Questions


> How can I give my close order army more room on the
> board? Particularly in FW, where I get no LC or LI in
> the 1st crusader list.
>
> Also, as a general topic for discussion, in what way
> do list folks manuver their armies during initial
> march moves so that the mounted remain behind the
> foot, yet do not leave gaps in the foot line where the
> mounted were to start with. In other words, how can I
> move close order foot so that they remain in front of
> my mounted with less than one element gaps, yet still
> get my mounted to stay within 240 of the battleline?
>
> boyd
>
>
> =====
> Wake up and smell the Assyrians
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

[Greg Regets]

I have to agree with Ewan, as I usually do - why would you want to?

Leaving gaps between your close order foot, large enough for your cavalry to
attack through, is a very good tactic. It will keep those pesky LHI/LMI guys
from skirmishing in front of your close order foot, since your cavalry will get
to approach last and skirmishing might end up leaving them in a bad way if the
cavalry attacks. This tactic (at least in our area) has given much pause to
armies organized around loose order foot.

Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: Ewan
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Tactical Questions


Wanax Andron wrote:
>
> How can I give my close order army more room on the
> board? Particularly in FW, where I get no LC or LI in
> the 1st crusader list.

My initial reaction to both of these (above and below) questions is 'why
would you want to?'

Given a close-order army, you wish to close the board down rather than
opening it up; once you get committed to fighting across the table
frontage, you're playing your opponent's game.

Or, are you talking about depth? This is more of a concern - avoiding
being pinned down before you get set up. There are obvious solutions -
force-marching, use of terrain (e.g. woods which might be hiding
pigrims, which will limit opponents' wish to come forward; less useful
in FW where it's a set list) but honestly, again, a decent initial setup
should obviate the need for much rearrangement.

What am I missing in your need?

> Also, as a general topic for discussion, in what way
> do list folks manuver their armies during initial
> march moves so that the mounted remain behind the
> foot, yet do not leave gaps in the foot line where the
> mounted were to start with. In other words, how can I
> move close order foot so that they remain in front of
> my mounted with less than one element gaps, yet still
> get my mounted to stay within 240 of the battleline?

This one I am not sure that I even understand. You want to have a
battleline composed of foot units without gaps for your cavalry to join
them? WHY?? I mean, you could start out that way if you wanted....?
Or, is the problem that you wish to march only twice with your army and
then stop? No problem - just march the cav on 4 and 3, bring the foot
up to join on 2 and 1. Ummm - no, I still don't see what you're really
trying to achieve. Taking your question literally, though, the answer
would be to deploy your cav facing parallel to the long base edge so
that they require two march segments to get into their 'initial
position' - and then the whole army moves forward en bloc. but I still
don't see the point. :(

E

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Ewan <ewan.mcnay@...> wrote:
> Wanax Andron wrote:
> >
> > How can I give my close order army more room on
> the
> > board? Particularly in FW, where I get no LC or
> LI in
> > the 1st crusader list.
>
> My initial reaction to both of these (above and
> below) questions is 'why
> would you want to?'

OK, guess I need to 'spain. Didn't want to give up
too much, but the questions seem irrational without
it. I want to form a solid close order wall--with
some LI forced marched in front on one side and all my
LC and HC on another. However, I don't want to give
away which side my mounted attack will fall on during
setup. I also don't want to forcemarch my infantry
and make them tired upon their first charge. If there
were a way to move the mounted starting on march 2,
then I could simply place them behind the infantry
line (sort of like backfield in motion..american
football reference).


> Given a close-order army, you wish to close the
> board down rather than
> opening it up; once you get committed to fighting
> across the table
> frontage, you're playing your opponent's game.

This would typcially be the case, but I'm trying to
conceptualize a differnt tactic. The problem with
close order is that usually one unit gets singled out
and weakened which in turn weakens the entire line.
By having units shoulder to shoulder, I prolong the
front and provide less opportunity for the enemy to
get two units fighting my one unit. Also the push of
close that are thus arrayed makes the enemy manuver
through counters, etc. more suspect as the long line
continues to trudge forward. For example lets say I
have 3 units of 6E MI with 80p gaps, this provides
enough room for the enemy to pull up with 2 4E LMI B
and skirmish/shoot it halted. If one of the units to
its flank needs to charge, I now have a 2E gap on one
flank. Eventually this gap turns into a problem that
HC would deal with, but I want the HC somewhere else
:)

I want to maintain a line with coordinated infantry
charges, and the best way to do that is to have a
shield wall that provides shooting bleed off to other
units. The more units I have sucking up masse missile
fire, the less CPF they absorb.

Also HC L/sh with LC J/sh helpers make a fantastic
charge of the crazed brigade if they can all line up
and charge onezies/twozies in consecutive turns.
Sort of a rolling impetuous charge effect in order to
crush an enemy wing enough to bleed reenforcements
from in front of the infantry. While reaking havoc
with the mounted flank, the infantry push unitl the
enemy troops are off the board :)

The overall tactic I call "Deflating". If I stab one
end of a raft while pushing on the other end, the
entire raft defates; if I just poke holes along the
length of the raft, the enemy simply puts fingers over
the holes (reenforcements) and it doesn't deflate in
the time aloted for battle :D

> Or, are you talking about depth? This is more of a
> concern - avoiding
> being pinned down before you get set up. There are
> obvious solutions -
> force-marching, use of terrain (e.g. woods which
> might be hiding
> pigrims, which will limit opponents' wish to come
> forward;

Yes this is the role of the pilgrims on the
non-mounted flank :)

less useful
> in FW where it's a set list) but honestly, again, a
> decent initial setup
> should obviate the need for much rearrangement.

No forcemarching in FW. So we're talking regular
Warrior.

>
> What am I missing in your need?

See above.

>
> > Also, as a general topic for discussion, in what
> way
> > do list folks manuver their armies during initial
> > march moves so that the mounted remain behind the
> > foot, yet do not leave gaps in the foot line where
> the
> > mounted were to start with. In other words, how
> can I
> > move close order foot so that they remain in front
> of
> > my mounted with less than one element gaps, yet
> still
> > get my mounted to stay within 240 of the
> battleline?
>
> This one I am not sure that I even understand. You
> want to have a
> battleline composed of foot units without gaps for
> your cavalry to join
> them? WHY?? I mean, you could start out that way
> if you wanted....?

See above. The problem for me lies in the halt if you
miss a march segment. So HC must move on 4th, or they
get no 3rd...

> Or, is the problem that you wish to march only twice
> with your army and
> then stop? No problem - just march the cav on 4 and
> 3, bring the foot
> up to join on 2 and 1. Ummm - no, I still don't see
> what you're really
> trying to achieve.

Still end up with gaps in infantry wall.


Taking your question literally,
> though, the answer
> would be to deploy your cav facing parallel to the
> long base edge so
> that they require two march segments to get into
> their 'initial
> position' - and then the whole army moves forward en
> bloc. but I still
> don't see the point.
>
> E

I'll work with this concept, but it still telgraphs my
entent. In the infantry, we are very vulnerable to
everything else on the battlefield, so we try never to
advertise our wearabouts or intent. Surprize is the
only military advantage infantry have, so we practise
it religiously :)

boyd



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[Ewan McNay]

Wanax Andron wrote:

<snip>

> > Or, is the problem that you wish to march only twice
> > with your army and
> > then stop? No problem - just march the cav on 4 and
> > 3, bring the foot
> > up to join on 2 and 1. Ummm - no, I still don't see
> > what you're really
> > trying to achieve.
>
> Still end up with gaps in infantry wall.

Not necessarily. Ascii art isn't going to cut it, but there's no
problem with deploying in essentially two ranks - a front line of foot
troops and a rear (maybe 160 paces back) line of mounted units in gaps
between them; then the mounted march on 4 and 3, the foot on 2 and 1,
with the march segments on 1 being angled to close up gaps to <1 element
width.

Deploying your cav parallel to the base edge, though, and macrhing the
twice to get into position behind the inf, does not reveal anything
about the intended destination of the cav - they can still march
essentially anywhere in the secnd turn's march moves.

e

--- Ewan <ewan.mcnay@...> wrote:
> Wanax Andron wrote:
>
> <snip>
> Not necessarily. Ascii art isn't going to cut it,
> but there's no
> problem with deploying in essentially two ranks - a
> front line of foot
> troops and a rear (maybe 160 paces back) line of
> mounted units in gaps
> between them; then the mounted march on 4 and 3, the
> foot on 2 and 1,
> with the march segments on 1 being angled to close
> up gaps to <1 element
> width.

Here is the problem with this. After 2 march moves,
enemy LC would have pinned my HC and they sit while
the infantry move up and get pinned next to them.
Then I have to insure the infantry get an approach as
attack orders dictate that half move to enguage. I
always end up countering HC, which is clunky.

> Deploying your cav parallel to the base edge,
> though, and macrhing the
> twice to get into position behind the inf, does not
> reveal anything
> about the intended destination of the cav - they can
> still march
> essentially anywhere in the secnd turn's march
> moves.

I see this, but I'll have to play with peices to
figure out the best way. For that matter, i could
just let the HC sit out the first bound, push the
infantry, then jet the cav where I want in bound 2.
Risky, as enemy bow armed LC will exploit my weak LC
without HC support. Its not like my infantry will be
more than 400 paces from my own table edge :)

boyd

Want to end up with this:
i=infantry fig
h=HC
l=LC



iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii llll llll
hhhllllhhhhhhhhhllll
hhh hhhhhhhhh

something like that above. Hope the art hold in your
browser.

boyd





>
> e
>


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--- Patrick Byrnes <cuan@...> wrote:
> Turn your cav 90 degrees to the line of battle and
> move them +2 march
> segments from the close order infantry. So in mar
> phase 4 and 3 they move
> themselves, then in mar phase 2 and 1 the move with
> (after) the infantry.
> Don't forget the 45 degrees wheel that are
> necessary.

I'm going to look into this. I hate the taste of jury
rig in order to perform a legitemate tactic, but I
guess that's what it takes.

>
> The cav only need to move back +1 segment if you
> want them behind Reg
> LMI/LHI.

I have no reg troops, and almost no LMI :)

>
> OR
>
> Forch march your infantry
> -PB

NEVER! :)

boyd


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-- "Greggory A. Regets" <gar@...> wrote:
> Leaving gaps between your close order foot, large
> enough for your cavalry to attack through, is a very
> good tactic. It will keep those pesky LHI/LMI guys
> from skirmishing in front of your close order foot,
> since your cavalry will get to approach last and
> skirmishing might end up leaving them in a bad way
> if the cavalry attacks. This tactic (at least in our
> area) has given much pause to armies organized
> around loose order foot.
> Greg

Greg, you are absolutely right, and when fighting LMI
based armies this is what I've always done. However,
I'm trying to develop tactics against mounted armies.
The above tactic never works well against a largely
mounted opponant, as every HC you send forward ends up
routing back from being charged in the next turn. That
is unless the enemy commander rolls a bunch of bad
wavers. Anyway, one thing mounted can't do well is
blow through HI/MI with LTS, so why not present LTS
except where *I* want my mounted to fight? PUSH PUSH
PUSH the mounted off the table with the close order
They're cheep enough to have plenty of board covered,
and with the pilgrims in the woods, one flank can be
anchored on terrain.

boyd

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[Greg Regets]

How about leaving small gaps in your infantry wall at deployment that you will
close up at march. Deploy your cavalry on the back edge of the table and march
them one segment into these gaps.

The enemy will not know if you intend to mass your cavalry or support your
infantry with cavalry. Since it is obviously your intent is to fight on your
side of the table (not force marching), you will get to see him move quite a bit
before your close order foot has to move. This will also give you the
flexibility to support your infantry in bound two if that seems to be the thing
to do or mass, as was your original idea. If you worry about your lights,
support them with a portion of your heavier cavalry. This will still not tip off
your enemy as the option still exists for you to support across your line or
mass on that flank.

G
----- Original Message -----
From: Wanax Andron
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Tactical Questions



--- Patrick Byrnes <cuan@...> wrote:
> Turn your cav 90 degrees to the line of battle and
> move them +2 march
> segments from the close order infantry. So in mar
> phase 4 and 3 they move
> themselves, then in mar phase 2 and 1 the move with
> (after) the infantry.
> Don't forget the 45 degrees wheel that are
> necessary.

I'm going to look into this. I hate the taste of jury
rig in order to perform a legitemate tactic, but I
guess that's what it takes.

>
> The cav only need to move back +1 segment if you
> want them behind Reg
> LMI/LHI.

I have no reg troops, and almost no LMI :)

>
> OR
>
> Forch march your infantry
> -PB

NEVER! :)

boyd


=====
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Patrick Byrne]

> --- Patrick Byrnes <cuan@...> wrote:
> > Turn your cav 90 degrees to the line of battle and
> > move them +2 march
> > segments from the close order infantry. So in mar
> > phase 4 and 3 they move
> > themselves, then in mar phase 2 and 1 the move with
> > (after) the infantry.
> > Don't forget the 45 degrees wheel that are
> > necessary.
>
> I'm going to look into this. I hate the taste of jury
> rig in order to perform a legitemate tactic, but I
> guess that's what it takes.

Don't consider this a jury rig. Consider it a tactical deployment made by
the CNC. Several movies have this them were the cav are sitting back with
the CNC before being told where to deploy.


>
> >
> > The cav only need to move back +1 segment if you
> > want them behind Reg
> > LMI/LHI.
>
> I have no reg troops, and almost no LMI :)

Think forward to your next army and also what your opponents may field.

>
> >
> > OR
> >
> > Forch march your infantry
> > -PB
>
> NEVER! :)

Never say never. If they are not getting into the fight. Maybe you ought
to try placing them right in the frey. Besides this tactic could throw your
opponent off for a game, may give you some edge.

-PB