Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Good stuff, Phil - and I have saved it.

But again, my objective in this thread was not to change the terrain system
per se. It is to find ways to improve the look of our games - overall, from
a terrain perspective, they are some of the worst in miniatures gaming.
We are still only into idea gathering and brain storming....

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Phil Gardocki]

Jon,
The current system already has a great degree of randomness involved.
People get to pick type and shape, but not location.
I will not say there is not a better terrain system. I liked one I saw,
where each player picked a density level and rolled on a chart that had the
terrain laid out. Outscouting side picked the side he would play on, then
each player got to add or subtract 1 piece.
This is one where the tournament/scenario organizers should be creative
on. Preset terrain and modifiers can be interesting, but the usual effect
is the players get more time to look at the board, and are hell for the
organizers to maintain.

If you change the terrain placement system you have to consider your
objectives.
Will a replacement system be:
More decision making?
More Random?
More Time consuming?

The existing system works fairly well. Many games have been played where
both players hated the board. And I am sure opposing generals have had the
same thoughts. I have not been exposed to many alternatives that can create
that feeling.

My2c
Phil



-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... <JonCleaves@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, March 25, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Terrain in Warrior Events


>
>
>In a message dated 3/24/2005 23:28:22 Central Standard Time,
>rockd@... writes:
>
>Re setup of terrain rules-- I find it unbelevable that people can
>choose the exact size & shape of the terrain piece at the moment the
>are laying it down. I would only ask that the exact piece you want
>to use be specified before setup starts. If it won't fit, you lose
>it.>>
>
>
>I have considered this. You set the size and shape when you pick the
pieces
>you are going to roll for. Thoughts from the gang?
>
>J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/31/2005 06:10:40 Central Standard Time,
PHGamer@... writes:

Jon,
The Terrain thread made for many jokes at Point Con. "Your not using
.... felt .... are you?"
Or the time I placed my coat on the table. "It has uneven boundaries, it
has 3 dimensions, it has at least 2 colors, it is a good piece of
terrain.">>


Nyuk, nyuk.... I would hope none in attendance gave up their day jobs to be
comedians...

Actually, Phil, 'peer pressure' is absolutely an ulterior motive of this
thread.... :)

And I have been misunderstood on felt. There's nothing wrong with felt as a
concept - it does the job and it is very transportable. I use it all the
time. But bright yellow felt for a 'brush'? Three different colors of felt,
none of them green and with no trees as 'woods'? Felt folded in half because
the player wanted to squeeze it in next to an open space? Gray felt with no
buildings or huts as a village? Observers, who do not yet play the game but
from whom our future is derived, think this looks like crap - and I agree...

J








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Phil Gardocki]

Jon,
The Terrain thread made for many jokes at Point Con. "Your not using
.... felt .... are you?"
Or the time I placed my coat on the table. "It has uneven boundaries, it
has 3 dimensions, it has at least 2 colors, it is a good piece of terrain."

Japes aside, you do not have to make any changes to the rules, the
tournament organizers can add any rule they want to. Personally, I am going
to add to my house rules, A player adds 5 scouting points for each piece of
terrain he deploys on his side of the board.

At Dennis's tournament, the house rule was an outscouted army could get an
automatic major water feature. But it was only at the edge of the table,
not occupying half the flank. We suspect this was self serving, as there
were obvious "dunes" awaiting placement, and he was running Midianites. (of
which my current score is 0-3 against in tournaments)

Phil

Jon, et al:

The problem with felt is that it is hard to work with. Another
option is canvas, like canvas drop cloths. All the same benefits,
e.g., transportable, can be cut into different shapes and sizes.
The bonus is that you can apply a covering texture and then paint
it.

My favorite method is elastomatic topping applied over the canvas,
paint grass green, a light wash with a dark brown, and drybrush
with off white or light brown. Looks like realistic ground cover.
Then you can add trees, brush, whatever, on top as you would to
felt. The elastomatic is good because you can easily texture road
ruts to simulate a path ot make it lumpy to simulate broken ground.
All materials can be had at your local builders emporium...OK, that
is all for our arts and crafts moment, now back to your regularly
scheduled program...

Rob




--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/31/2005 06:10:40 Central Standard Time,
> PHGamer@u... writes:
>
> Jon,
> The Terrain thread made for many jokes at Point Con. "Your not
using
> .... felt .... are you?"
> Or the time I placed my coat on the table. "It has uneven
boundaries, it
> has 3 dimensions, it has at least 2 colors, it is a good piece
of
> terrain.">>
>
>
> Nyuk, nyuk.... I would hope none in attendance gave up their day
jobs to be
> comedians...
>
> Actually, Phil, 'peer pressure' is absolutely an ulterior motive
of this
> thread....
>
> And I have been misunderstood on felt. There's nothing wrong
with felt as a
> concept - it does the job and it is very transportable. I use it
all the
> time. But bright yellow felt for a 'brush'? Three different
colors of felt,
> none of them green and with no trees as 'woods'? Felt folded in
half because
> the player wanted to squeeze it in next to an open space? Gray
felt with no
> buildings or huts as a village? Observers, who do not yet play
the game but
> from whom our future is derived, think this looks like crap - and
I agree...
>
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>>>>
Personally, I am going
to add to my house rules, A player adds 5 scouting points for each piece of
terrain he deploys on his side of the board.
<<<<<<<

That's a really nice idea, I like it

Allan

Greetings

I've spent some hours - four or so - this week making lay on terrain
for a relatively small (but densely terrained) area and thought I
would mention some of this while this topic is being discussed and
while it is fresh in my mind.

The terrain is not yet quite as I would like it but looks pretty good
for games purposes if not 'professional quality'. It did not take
long and is relatively portable (though probably not by air ...). I
did find that it did not take much effort to produce acceptable
terrain.

Caveats: this was not designed for travel or tournaments or using
Warrior sizes (although many will fit the criteria of Chapter 12).

I used a railroad flocked sheet as a basecloth (rolled up when not is
use).

Area features are irregularly shaped pieces of 2mm MDF with chamfered
edges [bought from LKM in the UK] to which I have PVA glued cut out
sections of the same flocked sheet. Trees and rough terrain are on
small card or plasticard bases on top of those areas in order to move
out of the way of figures. Where trees are fixed directly to a
larger base the trees can be removed from their bases for storage.

The one ridge I have made (less than perfect at present) is
polystyrene chunks PVA glued to an MDF base and covered in the same
flocked railroad sheet material - the broken polystyrene underneath
removes the precision of some bought hills but figures will still
stand up. Additional scatter is then added in places to the sheeting
to break up the monotony both on the ridge and other bases.

Cropfields made from green rectangular scouring pads sprayed tan
(which makes the pads a variable coloured green) and then drybrushed
with crop colour. These need to be mounted on something for
stability I think. Next stage is for ploughed fields.

The roads and river are painted light resin pieces but these may well
not travel well. The one building is resin on a plasticard base
sandpapered both sides to prevent slippage and with the surface
around the building flocked apart from the muddy area outside the
door.

Currently stored in 2 A4/foolscap file boxes apart from the base
cloth. This lot (exc roads/river previously done) took four hours or
so to make - longer to dry of course.

Regards

Edward

[Phil Gardocki]

I also spent my weekend off and on working up a couple of terrain pieces..
The forecast was for rain all weekend, and the queued up honeydo's were all
outside tasks.

It started with an attempt to create trees out of branches, flocking and
spray glue. It looked so easy on the craft channel when they did it, but my
trees all looked like fuzzy green dowsing rods.

A more effective design was two Built Over Areas. The base pieces are 23" x
9.5" plywood, glued and flocked. Then thick brown paint for roads and
plowed fields. All of this is flat and easy to transport. When deployed, I
will add a number of buildings and sections of walls, made of stone and
wood. All are movable for when troops are moving through. The result is
***not bad***. But from 6 feet, without my glasses, it looks pretty good.

I have not run Built Over Areas since TOG, and I think I see one
clarification. My understanding of how they work is this:
Visibility, same as woods, 40 paces.
Terrain is Very Difficult, disordering Mounted and Close order EXCEPT close
order defending the perimeter is not disordered unless it makes a tactical
move. I believe a recoil is not a tactical move, so predeployed close order
troops would do well in this terrain.

While the terrain is described as having livestock walls around the
perimeter, these do not act as an obstacle.
The Built Over Areas is larger than most terrain features, with a diagonal
measure of 645mm, in 15mm scale this is 16 inches. making it about 125mm,
3 inches for 15's, larger than similar terrain pieces.

The one caveat that is a little vague, is that this size limit is described
as maximum on table size. Implying it can be partially off table. I am
going to assume, since there is no minimum size, it could have a very
minimal footprint on the table edge, say 60mm x 240, providing your opponent
was restrictive with the string, this piece can at least offer flank
protection.

The disadvantage is its placement odds. 1-3 discard, 4-5 flank, 6 anywhere.
One point worse than woods.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Sturges <edward_sturges@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events


>
>
>Greetings
>
>I've spent some hours - four or so - this week making lay on terrain
>for a relatively small (but densely terrained) area and thought I
>would mention some of this while this topic is being discussed and
>while it is fresh in my mind.
>
>The terrain is not yet quite as I would like it but looks pretty good
>for games purposes if not 'professional quality'. It did not take
>long and is relatively portable (though probably not by air ...). I
>did find that it did not take much effort to produce acceptable
>terrain.
>
>Caveats: this was not designed for travel or tournaments or using
>Warrior sizes (although many will fit the criteria of Chapter 12).
>
>I used a railroad flocked sheet as a basecloth (rolled up when not is
>use).
>
>Area features are irregularly shaped pieces of 2mm MDF with chamfered
>edges [bought from LKM in the UK] to which I have PVA glued cut out
>sections of the same flocked sheet. Trees and rough terrain are on
>small card or plasticard bases on top of those areas in order to move
>out of the way of figures. Where trees are fixed directly to a
>larger base the trees can be removed from their bases for storage.
>
>The one ridge I have made (less than perfect at present) is
>polystyrene chunks PVA glued to an MDF base and covered in the same
>flocked railroad sheet material - the broken polystyrene underneath
>removes the precision of some bought hills but figures will still
>stand up. Additional scatter is then added in places to the sheeting
>to break up the monotony both on the ridge and other bases.
>
>Cropfields made from green rectangular scouring pads sprayed tan
>(which makes the pads a variable coloured green) and then drybrushed
>with crop colour. These need to be mounted on something for
>stability I think. Next stage is for ploughed fields.
>
>The roads and river are painted light resin pieces but these may well
>not travel well. The one building is resin on a plasticard base
>sandpapered both sides to prevent slippage and with the surface
>around the building flocked apart from the muddy area outside the
>door.
>
>Currently stored in 2 A4/foolscap file boxes apart from the base
>cloth. This lot (exc roads/river previously done) took four hours or
>so to make - longer to dry of course.
>
>Regards
>
>Edward
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

Again, rules 12 and 14 in the rulebook have been official replaced by
Warrior1214Dec7.doc in the files section.

That would be a Village you are talking about - 12.35C. In standard comps it
has no minimum size, true - but it also cannot be placed partially off table.
Yes, it can be fairly large, but a player may only choose one and it is
discarded on a 1-3.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: Philip H. Gardocki <PHGamer@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:14:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events



I also spent my weekend off and on working up a couple of terrain pieces..
The forecast was for rain all weekend, and the queued up honeydo's were all
outside tasks.

It started with an attempt to create trees out of branches, flocking and
spray glue. It looked so easy on the craft channel when they did it, but my
trees all looked like fuzzy green dowsing rods.

A more effective design was two Built Over Areas. The base pieces are 23" x
9.5" plywood, glued and flocked. Then thick brown paint for roads and
plowed fields. All of this is flat and easy to transport. When deployed, I
will add a number of buildings and sections of walls, made of stone and
wood. All are movable for when troops are moving through. The result is
***not bad***. But from 6 feet, without my glasses, it looks pretty good.

I have not run Built Over Areas since TOG, and I think I see one
clarification. My understanding of how they work is this:
Visibility, same as woods, 40 paces.
Terrain is Very Difficult, disordering Mounted and Close order EXCEPT close
order defending the perimeter is not disordered unless it makes a tactical
move. I believe a recoil is not a tactical move, so predeployed close order
troops would do well in this terrain.

While the terrain is described as having livestock walls around the
perimeter, these do not act as an obstacle.
The Built Over Areas is larger than most terrain features, with a diagonal
measure of 645mm, in 15mm scale this is 16 inches. making it about 125mm,
3 inches for 15's, larger than similar terrain pieces.

The one caveat that is a little vague, is that this size limit is described
as maximum on table size. Implying it can be partially off table. I am
going to assume, since there is no minimum size, it could have a very
minimal footprint on the table edge, say 60mm x 240, providing your opponent
was restrictive with the string, this piece can at least offer flank
protection.

The disadvantage is its placement odds. 1-3 discard, 4-5 flank, 6 anywhere.
One point worse than woods.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Sturges <edward_sturges@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events


>
>
>Greetings
>
>I've spent some hours - four or so - this week making lay on terrain
>for a relatively small (but densely terrained) area and thought I
>would mention some of this while this topic is being discussed and
>while it is fresh in my mind.
>
>The terrain is not yet quite as I would like it but looks pretty good
>for games purposes if not 'professional quality'. It did not take
>long and is relatively portable (though probably not by air ...). I
>did find that it did not take much effort to produce acceptable
>terrain.
>
>Caveats: this was not designed for travel or tournaments or using
>Warrior sizes (although many will fit the criteria of Chapter 12).
>
>I used a railroad flocked sheet as a basecloth (rolled up when not is
>use).
>
>Area features are irregularly shaped pieces of 2mm MDF with chamfered
>edges [bought from LKM in the UK] to which I have PVA glued cut out
>sections of the same flocked sheet. Trees and rough terrain are on
>small card or plasticard bases on top of those areas in order to move
>out of the way of figures. Where trees are fixed directly to a
>larger base the trees can be removed from their bases for storage.
>
>The one ridge I have made (less than perfect at present) is
>polystyrene chunks PVA glued to an MDF base and covered in the same
>flocked railroad sheet material - the broken polystyrene underneath
>removes the precision of some bought hills but figures will still
>stand up. Additional scatter is then added in places to the sheeting
>to break up the monotony both on the ridge and other bases.
>
>Cropfields made from green rectangular scouring pads sprayed tan
>(which makes the pads a variable coloured green) and then drybrushed
>with crop colour. These need to be mounted on something for
>stability I think. Next stage is for ploughed fields.
>
>The roads and river are painted light resin pieces but these may well
>not travel well. The one building is resin on a plasticard base
>sandpapered both sides to prevent slippage and with the surface
>around the building flocked apart from the muddy area outside the
>door.
>
>Currently stored in 2 A4/foolscap file boxes apart from the base
>cloth. This lot (exc roads/river previously done) took four hours or
>so to make - longer to dry of course.
>
>Regards
>
>Edward
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/6/2005 19:12:05 Central Daylight Time,
PHGamer@... writes:

Jon,
I only found one rules addendum on the website, that of 2 February 2005,
and no mention of Built Over Areas in it.

The rules as written say BOA's count as cover. There is no differentiation
between interior and exterior as there is for Disorder. (close order
defends the perimeter without disorder until it makes a tactical move). Are
units defending the perimeter covered? Or is that for the interior only.

Phil>>


Phil you are looking for a file labeled Warrior1214Dec7.doc in the files
section. It has been there since 8 Dec 04 and I have just personally
reverified
its presence and accessibility. I have made several announcements about its
existence. I don't know what else to tell you.

Jon








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Phil Gardocki]

Jon,
I only found one rules addendum on the website, that of 2 February 2005,
and no mention of Built Over Areas in it.

The rules as written say BOA's count as cover. There is no differentiation
between interior and exterior as there is for Disorder. (close order
defends the perimeter without disorder until it makes a tactical move). Are
units defending the perimeter covered? Or is that for the interior only.

Phil




-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... <JonCleaves@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events


>
>Again, rules 12 and 14 in the rulebook have been official replaced by
Warrior1214Dec7.doc in the files section.
>
>That would be a Village you are talking about - 12.35C. In standard comps
it has no minimum size, true - but it also cannot be placed partially off
table. Yes, it can be fairly large, but a player may only choose one and it
is discarded on a 1-3.
>
>J
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Philip H. Gardocki <PHGamer@...>
>To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:14:26 -0400
>Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events
>
>
>
>I also spent my weekend off and on working up a couple of terrain pieces..
>The forecast was for rain all weekend, and the queued up honeydo's were all
>outside tasks.
>
>It started with an attempt to create trees out of branches, flocking and
>spray glue. It looked so easy on the craft channel when they did it, but
my
>trees all looked like fuzzy green dowsing rods.
>
>A more effective design was two Built Over Areas. The base pieces are 23"
x
>9.5" plywood, glued and flocked. Then thick brown paint for roads and
>plowed fields. All of this is flat and easy to transport. When deployed, I
>will add a number of buildings and sections of walls, made of stone and
>wood. All are movable for when troops are moving through. The result is
>***not bad***. But from 6 feet, without my glasses, it looks pretty good.
>
>I have not run Built Over Areas since TOG, and I think I see one
>clarification. My understanding of how they work is this:
>Visibility, same as woods, 40 paces.
>Terrain is Very Difficult, disordering Mounted and Close order EXCEPT close
>order defending the perimeter is not disordered unless it makes a tactical
>move. I believe a recoil is not a tactical move, so predeployed close
order
>troops would do well in this terrain.
>
>While the terrain is described as having livestock walls around the
>perimeter, these do not act as an obstacle.
>The Built Over Areas is larger than most terrain features, with a diagonal
>measure of 645mm, in 15mm scale this is 16 inches. making it about 125mm,
>3 inches for 15's, larger than similar terrain pieces.
>
>The one caveat that is a little vague, is that this size limit is described
>as maximum on table size. Implying it can be partially off table. I am
>going to assume, since there is no minimum size, it could have a very
>minimal footprint on the table edge, say 60mm x 240, providing your
opponent
>was restrictive with the string, this piece can at least offer flank
>protection.
>
>The disadvantage is its placement odds. 1-3 discard, 4-5 flank, 6
anywhere.
>One point worse than woods.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Edward Sturges <edward_sturges@...>
>To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:44 AM
>Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events
>
>
>>
>>
>>Greetings
>>
>>I've spent some hours - four or so - this week making lay on terrain
>>for a relatively small (but densely terrained) area and thought I
>>would mention some of this while this topic is being discussed and
>>while it is fresh in my mind.
>>
>>The terrain is not yet quite as I would like it but looks pretty good
>>for games purposes if not 'professional quality'. It did not take
>>long and is relatively portable (though probably not by air ...). I
>>did find that it did not take much effort to produce acceptable
>>terrain.
>>
>>Caveats: this was not designed for travel or tournaments or using
>>Warrior sizes (although many will fit the criteria of Chapter 12).
>>
>>I used a railroad flocked sheet as a basecloth (rolled up when not is
>>use).
>>
>>Area features are irregularly shaped pieces of 2mm MDF with chamfered
>>edges [bought from LKM in the UK] to which I have PVA glued cut out
>>sections of the same flocked sheet. Trees and rough terrain are on
>>small card or plasticard bases on top of those areas in order to move
>>out of the way of figures. Where trees are fixed directly to a
>>larger base the trees can be removed from their bases for storage.
>>
>>The one ridge I have made (less than perfect at present) is
>>polystyrene chunks PVA glued to an MDF base and covered in the same
>>flocked railroad sheet material - the broken polystyrene underneath
>>removes the precision of some bought hills but figures will still
>>stand up. Additional scatter is then added in places to the sheeting
>>to break up the monotony both on the ridge and other bases.
>>
>>Cropfields made from green rectangular scouring pads sprayed tan
>>(which makes the pads a variable coloured green) and then drybrushed
>>with crop colour. These need to be mounted on something for
>>stability I think. Next stage is for ploughed fields.
>>
>>The roads and river are painted light resin pieces but these may well
>>not travel well. The one building is resin on a plasticard base
>>sandpapered both sides to prevent slippage and with the surface
>>around the building flocked apart from the muddy area outside the
>>door.
>>
>>Currently stored in 2 A4/foolscap file boxes apart from the base
>>cloth. This lot (exc roads/river previously done) took four hours or
>>so to make - longer to dry of course.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Edward
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>