Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

--- On November 30, Martin said: ---

>
> In a moment of madness, I drew up an Imperial Warrior list anyway
> and was mildly suprised at what I had. Consider the following:
>
> 1600 points list 16 "Ancient British"
> CnC + 1 2hlc
> SG + 1 2hlc
> SG + 8 irr B LHI, jls, sh + 9 irr B LMI, jls, sh
> 3 2hlc
> 3 2hlc
> 3 2hlc
> 8 irr c LC, jls, sh
> 8 irr C LC, jls, sh
> 8 iir C Lc, jla, sh
> 8 irr C LC, jls, sh
> 6 irr A LMI, jls, sh +12 irr C, LMI, jls, sh
> 6 irr A LMI, jls, sh +12 irr C, LMI, jls, sh
> 6 irr A LMI, jls, sh +12 irr C, LMI, jls, sh
> 6 irr A LMI, jls, sh +12 irr C, LMI, jls, sh
> 18 irr C LMI, jls, sh
> 12 irr C LI, s, sh
> 12 irr C LI, s, sh
> 12 irr C LI, s, sh
> 8 irr C LI, jls, sh
> 8 irr C Li, jls, sh
> units- 20 Scouting-73
>
> It has lots of manuver elements, some hard hitting irrA fronted
> warbands, enough scouting points to avoid being outscouted, enough
> chariots to cause unease all along the front, and more than enough
> light troops to keep most opponents on their toes.
> It just might make for an interesting "fun" army on occasion....it's
> also very pretty.
>
> Thoughts?

Well, chariots or no, you're going to be at the mercy of any decent knight army.
Granted those are out of period, but even within period a solid cataphract army
(say, Sassanids) will make a mess of you. That's equally true of Gauls and
Galatians, however, and as you say, this is intended to be a "fun" army. So,
trying to make the most of it....

I like the quantity and configuration of the light infantry. I certainly
wouldn't change a thing there. I also like the blocks of javelinmen fronted by
Irr As. I'm less confident that so many light chariots is a good idea, and I'm
a little concerned about your choice of unit size.

First the chariots: let's face it, 2 horse light chariots beat damned little.
They aren't particularly good at fighting light infantry solo, and they are
questionable against light cavalry. In a combined charge against LI with your
LI javelinmen they can do pretty well, giving your opponent the unenviable
choices of running away and being caught by the chariots, or standing and being
blown up by the javelinmen. But that's not an easy situation to set up, and it
won't come up in every battle. Granted, the light chariots are a cause of
unease, but you don't need to cause unease all across the battlefield; you need
to cause unease in those one or two critical places, on that one critical bound.
Two or three chariot units should suffice.

By the way, I don't think you've calculated scouting points correctly. LCh count
the same as HC, not the same as LC, for scouting purposes.

Unit size: 18 figures seems like such a comfortable middle ground for irr loose
order foot. Not so big as to become unwieldy, not so small as to be overly
brittle. In fact, I think it's exactly the wrong size. You need to think about
what role various units are going to play in the battle. Some units will be
line units, and some will be strike units. The job of the line units is to
initiate and/or absorb the initial charge. The job of the strike units is to
follow up and exploit disruptions created by first contact with the line units.
At 18 figures, you don't have a unit that is durable enough to be a line unit,
and you don't have a unit that is small and nimble enough to be a strike unit.

Line units should be 24 figures or 36 figures, and have a single element of Irr
A. Strike units should be 6 figures (LHI) or 12 figures (LMI) and should
operate primarily in a 1 element wide column off the line, waiting to hit
exposed flanks or overlapping elements of enemy bodies engaged with the line
units.

So: I would have no chariot generals, but keep the three independent LCh units.
I would take advantage of the bodyguard warriors to have several 6 figure units
of Irr B LHI JLS,Sh with generals. Against tired and/or disordered opponents
these will be durable enough, and they have the virtue of just about never
rolling down. The LMI should mostly be in 24 or 36 figure units (say, 4 of
these). Then you should have one unit that is entirely Irr A, or possibly
(depending on points available) 2 units of 12 figures that have 6 Irr A in the
front two ranks.

And don't worry so much about being outscouted. You want to have enough scouting
points so that a mixed army of some cav and some foot won't outscout you. Such
armies tend to come in at around 40 to 50 scouting points, so 15 to 18 should
suffice for your army. Being outscouted by an opponent with more scouting
points than that isn't a big deal. You know what he's going to have: a ton of
cav. And he knows what you're going to have: as much bad terrain as you can
get.

Good luck. I admire your courage for playing such an army. It is indeed a
gorgeous sight when laid out on the table.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

I want to agree with Mark that most folks start out with 6E Irr loose units but
discover the truth of his thought that for 'line' units these should 8E or 12E
and for strike units they should be 2E or 4E.

I would agree also that this army is challenged out of period by Knights. But I
don't agree that its is so bad in period. Sure the sassanid player could 'guess
right' and have more than 1 or 2 SHC, but he has to fight other people besides
ancient british and you have a nice light complement there (that you *have* to
make work). I think I'd like to take that force against gauls or galatians....

Jon

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/30/2004 22:01:15 Central Standard Time,
mwbard@... writes:

The only time
that a LMI/LHI body need not take a waver test for being charged by mounted
is when they're charging impetuously AND their charge is not cancelled.



In the open, that is true. Note that mounted do not cancel an impetuous
foot charge.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Tim Grimmett]

I've been playing a lot of Gauls lately and add the following comments.

In my mind the "optimal" LMI warband is 10E that fights 2 wide and five deep.
As a unit that counts as 21 for CPF purposes a single knight unit will not be
able to break a warband (on the first bound and in most cases--not taking a
waver at a halt helps).

Terrain can be a key equalizer when facing a knight army. You both should be
cold. Think carefully about how to close down the board, remembering that two
water features can be placed before he can throw down his first clear. I've
found dismounted knights can be a real problem; making them cross a minor water
feature helps. The full spectrum of ruses--flank marches, ambushes, and
imaginative use of terrain will need to be employed to make it a game.

I take the LCh in 4E units and aim them for any loose order foot on the board,
even if they have a missile weapon. Get those behind a knight unit somehow.

I've not made the smaller LMI units work yet. 2E is very fragile; 4E sometimes
have that problem of fitting into flanks.

They are fun to run.

JonCleaves@... wrote:
I want to agree with Mark that most folks start out with 6E Irr loose units but
discover the truth of his thought that for 'line' units these should 8E or 12E
and for strike units they should be 2E or 4E.

I would agree also that this army is challenged out of period by Knights. But I
don't agree that its is so bad in period. Sure the sassanid player could 'guess
right' and have more than 1 or 2 SHC, but he has to fight other people besides
ancient british and you have a nice light complement there (that you *have* to
make work). I think I'd like to take that force against gauls or galatians....

Jon

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

>>>
LCh... In a combined charge against LI with your
LI javelinmen they can do pretty well, giving your opponent the unenviable
choices of running away and being caught by the chariots, or standing and being
blown up by the javelinmen.
>>>

How does this work? Doesn't the mounted charge cancel the infantry charge?

And how does this army significantly differ from the Bronze Age
wheelies with LCh and loose order foot? No Irr A crazies, but
still...
--

Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

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[Mike Bard]

> In my mind the "optimal" LMI warband is 10E that fights 2 wide and five
deep. As a unit that counts as 21 for CPF purposes a
> single knight unit will not be able to break a warband (on the first bound
and in most cases--not taking a waver at a halt helps).

Okay, I give up. Why do the LMI not have to take a waver test? Is it only
if the knights have to charge across terrain or an obstacle? The only time
that a LMI/LHI body need not take a waver test for being charged by mounted
is when they're charging impetuously AND their charge is not cancelled.

I'm confused...

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy
(who has started preliminary work on his either Gaulic or British army as a
Celt army is the army he's always wanted to do after Hoplites)

[Mark Stone]

--- I said: ---
>>
>> LCh... In a combined charge against LI with your
>> LI javelinmen they can do pretty well, giving your opponent the unenviable
>> choices of running away and being caught by the chariots, or standing and
being
>> blown up by the javelinmen.
>>
--- To which Doug replied: ---
>
> How does this work? Doesn't the mounted charge cancel the infantry charge?
>
> And how does this army significantly differ from the Bronze Age
> wheelies with LCh and loose order foot? No Irr A crazies, but
> still...

Foot and mounted can charge together at the same target, provided the foot are
impetuous. That's why I said this wasn't easy to set up. The LI javelinmen are
Irr C, so often made uneasy.

One interesting option on this list is to take a sacred standard, thus improving
nearby C class troops. On 1600 points I probably wouldn't bother, given that
with the LMI you can mix in Irr A who serve the same purpose only better, and
given that you can have some Irr B LHI guys. On 2000 points, the sacred
standard becomes very appealing.

As for the contrast with Bronze Age chariot armies: well, the Irr A do make a
huge difference. And the fact that you can get some Irr B LHI. Some of the
Bronze Age armies get similar punch from the foot, particularly if they have a
Sea Peoples allied contingent, but this is generally more hitting power from
the foot than you see in the Bronze Age book. On the other hand, the Bronze Age
chariot armies tend to have better and more varied support troops, and if you
can get 4 horse chariots then you're in a whole different tactical realm.

Tim Brown seems to have had some remarkable success with the Neo-Assyrian list,
and indeed I think it's one of the best in Bronze Age Warrior. It is, however,
a finesse list, and Tim is quite a talented player. So I wouldln't recommend
this list to anyone unless they're willing to make a long term committment to
it and learn from a lot of mistakes.

The list I really like from Bronze Age Warrior is Later Hebrew. You have a mix
of chariot types, including some fairly potent 4 horse chariots; you have a mix
of regular and irregular foot giving you some maneuver and some shock; you have
an abundance of decent light troops; and you can amass some real concentrated
shooting at one point on the battlefield by taking a unit of Midianite camels
and supporting it with your foot archers.

But for doing one thing (mass impetuous foot charges) and doing it well, Ancient
British is a pretty solid list.


-Mark Stone

[Doug]

> > if you
>can get 4 horse chariots then you're in a whole different tactical realm.
>
>Tim Brown seems to have had some remarkable success with the
>Neo-Assyrian list,
>
>The list I really like from Bronze Age Warrior is Later Hebrew.

Yea, but all those are really getting into the Iron Age and Cavalry
age. I'm talkin' pure pre-catastrophe bronze metal.

Thanks for the quick and informative replies. Before actually
fielding the army I will certainly take much of that advice into
consideration. The points regarding the LMI are especially thought
provoking. However I still think the number chariots is fine.

I do realise that they are next to useless against most opponents
frontally. However when used againt the flank or rear of an already
pinned unit, they can be deadly. Also I still think that having a
cause of unease all across the frontage of the infantry is a god
thing. Back in the late '90s I used to run a Kushite Egyptian army
and found that a couple of small units of chariots behind my
infantry could make all the difference in world often meaning that
irregular infantry caught my charges at the halt rather than
launching their own impetuous charge. I recall blowing a huge hole
in an Early German army's infantry line using just this tactic
during a 1997 tourny. The number of chariot units means that I
would not have to be so careful about setting up such an occurance.

In any event, the chariots are so cheap as to be almost a non-
issue. I honestly don't know what else I would spend the excess
point on anyway as I have enough lights as it is.

The point mark made about not using chariot generals is also a good
one. Even if it's a very "celtic" thing to do and looks great,
mounting them on chariots robs the army of the extra shock power of
it's generals. Putting them at the head of warbands might be a
better way to go.

Martin