Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Jon,

I know the rules are being set in cement but I'd like to make an
appeal for a modification to the rules about LI. LI were used for
scouting, screening your own troops and to slow down and hamper an
enemy advance. Under the new rules, this will no longer happen.

1. Waver test or Recall.
I agree that a small unit of LI should not be allowed to hold up a
unit of close or loose foot (it has happened to me on numerous
occasions) but likewise I believe LI should be allowed to slow down
an advance. Under the new rules, LI within 40 paces of loose or
close steady foot in good going at the end of approaches must either
test waver or recall. (Question: LI only in good going?) JLS armed
LI will be greatly disadvantaged here. Since most LI are C class or
worse, in almost all cases the LI will recall. If in the recall, the
LI move back 120 paces, the enemy unit can advance a full approach
move. So the slow down effect of LI no longer exists. Even if the
LI roll short (80 paces), close still get a full move. It is even
possible to push the LI off the back of the table without ever
charging them!

How about a change? Same rules but LI only move back 40 paces?
Slows down the enemy advance without stopping it completely. Also
allows the LI to be within change reach if it got a good shooting
result before it recalled. Very good if the LI are JLS armed.

2. Counter move after Recall announced.
Imagine if you will the scenario where a unit of Roman legonaries is
fronted by a unit of LI and a unit of LMI moves past the end of the
LI to approach another Roman unit.

1
RRRR
RRRR 2
RRRR
MMM RRRR
MMM
L L
L L

If Roman unit number 2 does not approach but elects to counter (now
this is MOST unusual for a Roman army..... not!), the LI must waver
or recall at the end of appraoches. If they elect to recall, the
Roman unit 2 is now free to counter to face the LMI without any fear
of being charged in the flank by the LI! Unit 2 can then charge the
LMI in it's flank while the LI stands there and watches! And you
just know there are players who will do this very thing, 'cause I'm
one of 'em. The old ruling would prevent this as the LI WOULD and
could charge unprompted into a presented flank.

Question: Would LI have to test waver or recall if they approach
close or loose foot to 40 paces on a flank? What if the close or
loose counters so they now face the LI?

3. LI vs Cav.
The new rules make it impossible for LI to stop the advance of foot
but does not prevent them from stopping mounted. A 2 element unit LI
can hold up a unit of cav by standing at 40 paces without the need to
take a waver test. If the cav are knights or have no missile weapons
(chariots, some elephants etc) there is not even a need to shoot at
teh mounted. Unless the mounted charge, the LI can stand there all
game. This is exactly the situation that you are trying to stop
against foot.

In conclusion, JLS armed LI will be at a great disadvantage under
these rules. They cannot slow down a foot advance, they cannot take
advantage of a good shooting result (disorder / shaken) and they can
be run off the table without having to force their opponent to
charge. At the same time, if the skirmish ruling is to be taken at
face value, if JLS armed LI are mixed with B armed LI in skirmish at
80 paces, the whole unit will count as shieldless even if the now NON-
firing front rank has them. So much for the research into the use of
shield bearers. The only use left for LI is to break up into "penny
packets" of 2 to 4 elements and snipe on the wings or to face cav
since there is no requirment to make a test to stand there. Big
units of LI will be a waste of space and points. For an army such as
the Philistines (minimum 36 ELEMENTS of LI JLS no shield) this will
be a great handicap.

Thank you. The soap box is now yours.

Cheers

Steve

[joncleaves]

Steve writes:
<<LI were used for scouting, screening your own troops and to slow down and
hamper an enemy advance.>>

Certain types of enemy advance. We have no credible evidence of LI slowing
heavy foot.

<<Under the new rules, this will no longer happen.>>

This is not true. First, this rule is not new. It has been around for a couple
years in the states and has not posed any significant problem.
Second, a unit of LI CAN (I say again: CAN CAN CAN) stop a heavy foot unit.
They just have to take a waver to do it. You want to try to keep armored men
from moving forward with guys in t-shirts, you take your chances that they will
not see it as such a great idea. You are not the leader of a band of LI, you
are the CINC.

<<1. Waver test or Recall.
Since most LI are C class or
worse, in almost all cases the LI will recall.>>

That is the players' choice. It has been working fine.
My early Germans reply: get some real LI if you want to do this consistently!!
:)

<<2. Counter move after Recall announced.
Imagine if you will the scenario where a unit of Roman legonaries is fronted by
a unit of LI and a unit of LMI moves past the end of the LI to approach another
Roman unit.

1
RRRR
RRRR 2
RRRR
MMM RRRR
MMM
L L
L L

If Roman unit number 2 does not approach but elects to counter>>

Since the LI is 40p away, that means the LI moved up there. Since the HI didn't
move in approaches, what is the difference?

<< ..... the LI must waver or recall at the end of appraoches. >>

Not true. Recalls are all done at the END of the turn. He'll still be there
during counters, since it is at the END of counters/retirements that the LI must
make this choice.

<<Question: Would LI have to test waver or recall if they approach close or
loose foot to 40 paces on a flank?>>

This question also indicates that you have the rule all wrong. I'll quote it
here and you tell me if your objections remain the same:


"&#61623; if LI entirely in non-difficult terrain which are within 40p of any
steady close or loose order foot enemy body (and not behind its flank). In this
case, the LI must either take a waver test or make a recall move (unless charged
first and then must evade). The choice to do this is made at the end of
retirement moves, but the recall move is executed in the END PHASE."

<<3. LI vs Cav.
The new rules make it impossible for LI to stop the advance of foot but does not
prevent them from stopping mounted. A 2 element unit LI can hold up a unit of
cav by standing at 40 paces without the need to
take a waver test.>>

True. That's because the cav can ride them down, and if the LI is in the same
open terrain that would force the recall choice if they were faced by foot,
they'll take a waver to boot!!

<< If the cav are knights or have no missile weapons
(chariots, some elephants etc) there is not even a need to shoot at teh
mounted.>>

???? I NEVER miss an opportunity to shoot mounted with LI. One too many
Foster's, Steve, I think. :)

<< Unless the mounted charge, the LI can stand there all game.>>

Gosh, that's right. If the player with the mounted doesn't charge, the LI can
stand there all game... Do you play with a lot of guys that don't charge LI
with their mounted troops?

The WRG 7.6 LI recall rule is there because:
1. LI too powerful in WRG 7th
2. This compromise at least dealt with the foot that could not or had a hard
time catching LI. Cav do not have that trouble and cause a waver as well.

<<In conclusion, JLS armed LI will be at a great disadvantage under these
rules.>>

I do not agree.
1. JLS LI are there to kill the other guy's non-JLS LI, not stop legionaires.
2. They CAN stop a foot advance, they just have to waver. Besides, an LI
recalling still keeps a foot unit from turning away to do something else.

<<.. they cannot take
advantage of a good shooting result (disorder / shaken)>>

Yes they can. See the rule: they do not have to make this choice if the foot
isn't steady. Fifty lashes with a wet rulebook, Steve.

<< The only use left for LI is to break up into "penny
packets" of 2 to 4 elements and snipe on the wings or to face cav since there is
no requirment to make a test to stand there. Big units of LI will be a waste of
space and points. For an army such as the Philistines (minimum 36 ELEMENTS of
LI JLS no shield) this will
be a great handicap.>>

I absolutely disagree with what you just said. Like I said above, reread the
rule and tell me if your objections still stand.

Jon

[Greg Regets]

I would argue against changing the new rules that require LI to recall or
test at 40p. The new rule is much more realistic, and I say that being a guy
that regularly uses as much as six units of LI in my organizational plan.

LI does in fact slow the march move of close order, and that is the big
slowing benefit to be gained. Also, if you pin with your LI at 240p and do
not advance, it takes him three moves to get to 40p to cause this check or
recall event. The nifty player will use a retirement to move back before the
enemy gets in charge reach, making it take as many as five bounds to get you
to make your first recall move. Exactly how many bounds are you playing
anyway, ~smiles~

I like the rules as they currently are ... now if you want to talk about the
wrap rules? Sorry Jon, couldn't resist!!

Greg

ENOUGH! FINI! Alright already! Uncle and other words to mean that
I will stop. My only real objection is the waver test.

Rule 1. Never EVER waver test when another option exists.
Rule 2. If no other option exists, refer to Rule 1.

On the subject of expendable heffalumps. Terrence, I live in Sydney,
I have played tournaments in Sydney, Newcastle, Wollongong and
Canberra and I can tell you right now, NO rules convenor at MOAB or
CANCON would allow this. Your "friend" is "being creative" with his
list!

The closest he could come to justifying his claim is the 6th Ed
Abbysinian listing which has an amendment that allows for Abbysinian
troops to be upgraded to Irr A. Some of the "sporting" types here
who have since gone to DBM (DBM's loss is 7th's gain) did not insert
the line in the correct position in the list and insisted that the
Irr A option included the elephants. Did not get past the umpires.
Get him to PROVE his list is correct. If not, the book list stands.

Lists (both the old blue book 6th and the new 7th) DID specify which
troops were expendable and, as far as I can tell, elephants were
NEVER expendable.


>Exactly how many bounds are you playing anyway, ~smiles~

As many as 7 or 8 although I have been known to get stuck in by bound
1! Knights of St.John, dismounted, backed by crossbow, behind
ditched palisades. Just don't take them stoopid bombards. -5 +2
comes round WAYYYYYYYYY too often.

Mind you, EHI scutoi in testudo are also good value...... hehehehe

Cheers

Steve

[joncleaves]

<< Terence notes this waver test does not appear in the listed
Waver Tests in the draft rules, though it is mentioned elsewhere in
the text.
And for ease of reference, I would like the Waver tests to have
their own entry in the table of contents, rather than being buried in
a "Shaken" sub-section. Please. (not being able to find things easily
was one of my gripes about 7th Ed.)>>

Yeah, that's been bothering me, too. I have listed the LI/recall test in
5.141 (the draft on the net is hopelessly out of date; I am desperately
trying to fix that), but the tests themselves are still buried. I'll fix it.


Steve:
> <<1. Waver test or Recall.
> Since most LI are C class or
> worse, in almost all cases the LI will recall.>>
>
Jon:
> That is the players' choice. It has been working fine.
> My early Germans reply: get some real LI if you want to do this
consistently!!
>
Terence asks: (and maybe he needs reading glasses):
When is the wavering test made?

At the end of counters/retires immediately upon making the choice to stay.

<< Terence asks:
Under some circumstances (e.g. LI under HOLD orders and not
skirmishing) LI cannot evade if charged - I presume this would
trigger a wavering test under the above rule. Others might say the LI
must evade. Is my presumption correct?>>

I need to look at this one.

<<Terence observes:
True, Jon, but mounted take at least 2 fatigue points for charging,
whereas the infantry will not always be fatigued for charging.>>

1st: once again, 'fatigue' is a name. It is a cumulative loss of
effectiveness and not entirely lathered horses.
2d: Don't use SHK to ride down LI. Use a troop designed for that.


<<Steve wrote:
> <<.. they cannot take
> advantage of a good shooting result (disorder / shaken)>>
>
Jon replied:
> Yes they can. See the rule: they do not have to make this choice
if the foot isn't steady. Fifty lashes with a wet rulebook, Steve.

Terence notes:
The choice is made at the end of retirements. Prep shooting comes
after Retirements. This is why I ask about the timing of the waver
test.>>

You do not even have to make the choice if the enemy opposing you is
unsteady. If you shoot your foot opponent to disorder, there is no
recall/waver choice to be made!!!!

<<Also, as the recall move itself is not made till the final phase, the
LI will still be eligible charge targets - especially important for
ATTACK orders. That is, they will still tie up the enemy command
system, as the unit facing the LI will need to be prompted to charge
targets in subsequent bounds. Is this reasonable?>>

Old draft. This choice does not take away the free charge from attack orders.

<< Again, thanks for providing an open forum for discussion,>>

I apologize for snipping the last section of your mail, but it was all rules
changes. Resubmit when the call for x-rules goes out.

Jon

I've been following this discussion with some interest. I
particularly like slowing down enemy foot with LI.

Pre-dating this change, the enemy foot had to charge the LI to drive
them off. As far as the LI were concerned, this was often had more
effect than their shooting (esp. at shielded close foot), as
"Charging again" fatigue could be incurred. The close foot were not
stopped completely: they just had to keep charging to drive the enemy
LI off. The other penalty the close foot faced was the need to be
prompted to charge (under most circumstances). Taken together, these
make LI quite valuable (and quite annoying).

Is it "realistic" that LI should tire the beefier units attempting
to drive them off AND tie up the command system of the enemy? As
much as I like doing so myself, I feel the answer is no. Together,
the effect is too much.

But with neither, is the effect too little? A discussion on the
historical function of LI would be quite useful here, as hinted in
the following:

> Steve writes:
> <<LI were used for scouting, screening your own troops and to slow
down and hamper an enemy advance.>>
> Jon replies:
> Certain types of enemy advance. We have no credible evidence of LI
slowing heavy foot.
Terence asks:
What types of enemy advance? (Yes, LI are good at stopping marches)



Steve:
> <<Under the new rules, this will no longer happen.>>
Jon:
> This is not true. First, this rule is not new. It has been around
for a couple years in the states and has not posed any significant
problem.
> Second, a unit of LI CAN (I say again: CAN CAN CAN) stop a heavy
foot unit. They just have to take a waver to do it. You want to try
to keep armored men from moving forward with guys in t-shirts, you
take your chances that they will not see it as such a great idea.
You are not the leader of a band of LI, you are the CINC.
>
Terence notes this waver test does not appear in the listed
Waver Tests in the draft rules, though it is mentioned elsewhere in
the text.
And for ease of reference, I would like the Waver tests to have
their own entry in the table of contents, rather than being buried in
a "Shaken" sub-section. Please. (not being able to find things easily
was one of my gripes about 7th Ed.)



Steve:
> <<1. Waver test or Recall.
> Since most LI are C class or
> worse, in almost all cases the LI will recall.>>
>
Jon:
> That is the players' choice. It has been working fine.
> My early Germans reply: get some real LI if you want to do this
consistently!!
>
Terence asks: (and maybe he needs reading glasses):
When is the wavering test made? When the decision is first triggered
(needs to be made), or when a response can no longer be avoided? The
people I started my wargaming with always left wavering tests till
the last possible moment. e.g. LC taking 2 CPF prep shooting have to
rally back unless charged first, when evade - the interpretation was
to test Waver only when a move had to be made, not when the prep
shooting resolved (i.e. test during charge response, if LC responded
to a charge with anything but an evade, or, if not charged, test at
end of bound if they don't rally back [= Recall in Warrior]) . Is this
timing incorrect?

Jon also quotes the rule:
> "&#61623; if LI entirely in non-difficult terrain which are within
40p of any steady close or loose order foot enemy body (and not
behind its flank). In this case, the LI must either take a waver
test or make a recall move (unless charged first and then must evade).
The choice to do this is made at the end of retirement moves, but the
recall move is executed in the END PHASE."
>
Terence asks:
Under some circumstances (e.g. LI under HOLD orders and not
skirmishing) LI cannot evade if charged - I presume this would
trigger a wavering test under the above rule. Others might say the LI
must evade. Is my presumption correct?


Steve writes:
> <<3. LI vs Cav.
> The new rules make it impossible for LI to stop the advance of foot
but does not prevent them from stopping mounted. A 2 element unit LI
can hold up a unit of cav by standing at 40 paces without the need to
> take a waver test.>>
>
Jon replies:
> True. That's because the cav can ride them down, and if the LI is
in the same open terrain that would force the recall choice if they
were faced by foot, they'll take a waver to boot!!

Terence observes:
True, Jon, but mounted take at least 2 fatigue points for charging,
whereas the infantry will not always be fatigued for charging. If I
can get my enemy's SHK to expend their energies mowing down my scummy
peasant LI, tactically that's great (in a one-off battle, anyway...)
Maybe that's historically accurate as well, but what a waste of heavy
metal!!! My basic point here is a feeling of inequality between how
mounted and foot can deal with LI, relative to the threat posed. And
yet, mounted are more susceptible to missile fire than foot, giving
the cavalry incentive to charge in, whereas foot may take a more
leisurely approach.

See also point 2 below - the compromise!
>
> The WRG 7.6 LI recall rule is there because:
> 1. LI too powerful in WRG 7th
> 2. This compromise at least dealt with the foot that could not or
had a hard time catching LI. Cav do not have that trouble and cause
a waver as well.

Terence is bold:
Why not surpass point 2) by allowing charging foot a random add of +40
paces? (because if they catch the evading LI - SPLATTER!!!) You could
make it highly conditional (e.g. only when chasing foot) Maybe it
didn't work out this way historically - the LI giving ground rather
than risking being caught evading. This is another reason why I would
like to see a discussion on the historical functionality of LI.



Steve wrote:
> <<.. they cannot take
> advantage of a good shooting result (disorder / shaken)>>
>
Jon replied:
> Yes they can. See the rule: they do not have to make this choice
if the foot isn't steady. Fifty lashes with a wet rulebook, Steve.

Terence notes:
The choice is made at the end of retirements. Prep shooting comes
after Retirements. This is why I ask about the timing of the waver
test. A shaken missile unit is not terribly effective, especially if
LI vs shielded close foot. (Mind you, unshaken LI shooting rarely
disorders steady shielded foot.)

Also, if the decision is announced to the enemy at end of
retirements, it will influence his decision to charge. If the LI
stand and the wavering test has to be made with the decision, the
enemy gets an advantage of knowledge regardless of the LI failing or
not. Is this desirable? (Maybe it is, to reward aggressive play.
After all, we're not playing cricket.)

More so, if the LI fail Wavering (at end of Retirements) then the LI
shooting is screwed and, if charged (and who wouldn't??), the LI will
Test Waver for Responding to Charge When Shaken. They will be screwed
in all orifices!!

Also, as the recall move itself is not made till the final phase, the
LI will still be eligible charge targets - especially important for
ATTACK orders. That is, they will still tie up the enemy command
system, as the unit facing the LI will need to be prompted to charge
targets in subsequent bounds. Is this reasonable?


My own thougts are: (these are a package deal):

1) Light troops can be charged without prompting by steady non-light
troops which are under Probe, Attack or Rush orders. (You may want to
modify this to account for behaviour of "Missile Troops").

2) As a result of 1), steady Troops under Attack orders do not
consider light troops under the "when first eligible to charge"
condition.

Note: these two rules prevent LI tying up an aggressor's command
system by requiring charge prompts to be made now/later.

3) Allow foot a random add of +40 paces when charging enemy. (This
may have to be against foot only, but it gives the grunts a chance to
catch (and slaughter) the LI).

4) if, IN THE END PHASE, LI entirely in non-difficult terrain which
are within 40p of any steady NON-LIGHT (non-Artillery or Transport
etc) enemy body (and not behind its flank). In this case, the LI
must either take a waver test or make a recall move.

This last modification adds cavalry to the menace whilst making it
clear that the threat has to be faced at the end of the bound.


I realise some of these are radical: but I didn't want to comment on
the current state of affairs without at least offering an
alternative, even if those alternatives are not taken up.

Again, thanks for providing an open forum for discussion,

Terence.


PS here is a radical House Rule my friends and I use:

For Attack orders, the requirement to prompt a unit to charge is only
triggered once a unit passes up an opportunity to charge. In this
context, foot can keep charging LI without needing prompts, at the
cost of fatigue for charging in consecutive bounds.

We find this alteration usually encourages aggressive play, though
some generals use it so they can be lazy. I am aware it can be abused.

Perhaps an Order between Attack and Rush, which really pushes the
general to be aggressive? Very radical change.

But my friends and I use 7.5 rules, which only forbids Initial Orders
from being RUSH or RETREAT. I am not adverse to generals issuing
either of these orders later. Warrior explicitly forbids this. Poo!!

Please tell me, why?

It is especially important for campaign battles.

Terence.

[joncleaves]

Ok, you got me. (And that will be the last time I answer a question on the
fly)

You are right, of course. If the LI makes the recall choice before it can
prep shoot the enemy into disorder, it cannot take advantage of its own
shooting. The FH will now convene a rules issue council to decide what IF
ANYTHING we might want to do about that.
I did not research my answer and misled some of you. My future answers will
have to be a little slower in coming to avoid having that happen again.

Sorry.
Jon

[joncleaves]

Steve

Please feel free to stir away! I just need to focus on getting the last
draft of 6.0 done so we can move on, but this last couple weeks at work has
not been very supportive of my hobby. Thanks for your patience.

Jon

Jon,

Sorry, it is too good a point to not make it.

Please correct where I am wrong. I will break this down so I can get
the correct sequence in my head.

Step 1. LI end up 40 pace from the FRONT of loose or close foot at
the END of Approaches / Counters / Retirements. Assume all end in
good going for this question. I am assuming that if the LI are on
the flank or rear of loose or close at the end of Counter and
Retirements, no waver test needs to be made. (Is this correct??)

Step 2. LI MUST now decide to;
a.)stay at 40 paces and test waver OR
b.)decide to Recall.
[for this problem, assume the LI decided to Recall]

Step 3. Prep shooting now occures.

My original question (and Terences' as well) is,

if the LI shoot the close or loose into disorder OR cause the target
to take a waver test and they FAIL, can the LI IGNORE the compulsory
recall and declare a charge? Remember, the LI decided not to test
wavering at the end of Counters and Retirements.

Step 4. Charges / Results / Recall moves yadda yadda

My thrust is this. If the CHOICE to Recall is made before the Prep
shooting results AND the if choice to Recall MUST be adheared to, a
favourable shooting result cannot be exploited by the LI until the
NEXT bound (assuming they rolled SLOW to 80 paces) or until the bound
after THAT, a full 2 bounds later due to the need to Approach the
target.

Was LI too powerful under 7th? Maybe but they should STILL require
the opposition to take notice of them and respond to them. If this
means having to charge to clear them away (assuming that the opponent
has no LI or LC of it's own or that I have sneakily placed the LI in
front of his foot, away from his LC and LI), slow down the marches
AND deployment of the close or loose or even just to soak up prompts
and cause fatigue for charging or shooting.

LI are not expendables but I take great delight in shooting knights
and cav into compulsory charges and then standing to receive the
charge purely for the fatigue it causes to the mounted. I don't do
this against foot 'cause the LI are more valuable to HOLD the foot
back and to take the edge off them before I get MY foot into them.
And I expect HIS LI to do the same to me.

The comment they "can stop foot but just have to waver test" is
unrealistic as the LI will EVADE if charged by the foot anyway. So
why the waver test when the end result, the chasing off of the LI by
the close or loose foot will occur REGARDLESS of the outcome of the
waver test?

If I waver and fail, the shooting is screwed and the foot will still
charge the LI who must now take another waver test before they try to
run away. Yes, it is ONLY a waver test but how many players REFUSE
waver tests by not prompting their D grade troops to charge?
Afterall, they CAN charge, as long as they waver test........

Cheers

Steve


<<<<< BIG snip here.... see more below....>>>>>

>
> <<Steve wrote:
> > <<.. they cannot take
> > advantage of a good shooting result (disorder / shaken)>>
> >
> Jon replied:
> > Yes they can. See the rule: they do not have to make this choice
> if the foot isn't steady. Fifty lashes with a wet rulebook, Steve.
>
> Terence notes:
> The choice is made at the end of retirements. Prep shooting comes
> after Retirements. This is why I ask about the timing of the waver
> test.>>
>
> You do not even have to make the choice if the enemy opposing you
is
> unsteady. If you shoot your foot opponent to disorder, there is no
> recall/waver choice to be made!!!!

???? This would lead me to believe that the LI CAN ignore the
compulsory recall if they cause the target to shake (fail waver for
being shot) after prep shooting. Is this correct????

>
> <<Also, as the recall move itself is not made till the final
phase, the
> LI will still be eligible charge targets - especially important
for
> ATTACK orders. That is, they will still tie up the enemy command
> system, as the unit facing the LI will need to be prompted to
charge
> targets in subsequent bounds. Is this reasonable?>>
>
> Old draft. This choice does not take away the free charge from
attack orders.
>
> << Again, thanks for providing an open forum for discussion,>>
>
> I apologize for snipping the last section of your mail, but it was
all rules
> changes. Resubmit when the call for x-rules goes out.
>
> Jon

Jon,

Many thanks. I will stop stirring the possum.

Cheers

Steve


--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Ok, you got me. (And that will be the last time I answer a
question on the
> fly)
>
> You are right, of course. If the LI makes the recall choice before
it can
> prep shoot the enemy into disorder, it cannot take advantage of its
own
> shooting. The FH will now convene a rules issue council to decide
what IF
> ANYTHING we might want to do about that.
> I did not research my answer and misled some of you. My future
answers will
> have to be a little slower in coming to avoid having that happen
again.
>
> Sorry.
> Jon

everybody,

Let's get real about LI. If a block of pikes came over the hill and saw
a scattered bunch of javelin armed infantry without armor they would not even
slow down for a moment. They would love nothing more than to get a chance to
actually get into pike range of those guys. Armored infantry is not going to
slow down for those types of troops, especially on the battlefield. Yes,
they may be forced to come out of march mode, but lights were not a threat.
Screening means that you keep the other guys scouts out of sight while you
deploy, set up camp, or forage. Of course in difficult terrain that
disrupted your formation, then lights could be more of a problem, but not in
the center of an open battle field. Light troops on the flank could harass
units and threaten to envelop, but standing around in an open field in front
of close formation troops is a joke.
In reading about Alexander's battles or other pike battles, have you ever
read one word about the pike blocks, 10,000 men strong, being delayed because
there were 200 LI skirmishers in front of them, I don't think so? You guys
that hold up large formations of infantry are not great generals with finely
honed formations. You are good game players who are taking advantage of
rules that make LI much more powerful than they ever were. If units of LI
could stop massed formations and shoot them into disarray or a shaken
condition, why would anyone ever use anything else? Why are most LI units
historically low grade in both morale and training? Because they were the
troops that were not good enough to be part of the main battle line. So does
it seem reasonable that the troops that were not good enough to be part of
the main battle line would be capable of slowing down and intimidating those
troops, I really don't think so.
Lets look at the comment about light cavalry not knowing if the LI was
going to recall. In reality, all of this stuff is happening at the same
time. Cavalry does not go immediately into a gallop. As the cavalry
approached the LI, they could clearly see if the lights were starting to pull
back. To have any chance of getting away from the LC, the LI would have to
start falling back as soon as the LC looked like it might charge.
A more realistic rule would be that anytime a loose or close formation
unit gets within charge reach of a LI unit, the LI unit immediately takes a
morale test.
This is a game that can be a lot of fun, but the rules do not simulate
reality. Don't take the rules for facts and look for a historical exception
that proves the rules, look at the great mass of battles and see what kinds
of troops the real commanders had and used.

Mike

[Greg Regets]

I COMPLETELY agree with Steve on this one. The choice to test or recall
should not be made until the recall phase.

A. Darn near anything might happen to that CO unit. It might even shake, and
the LI would then be committed to recall. Lets not forget that the LI unit
has a SERIOUS movement advantage over its opponent and would not have to get
a note from its mother to run away!

B. In addition to being within 40p of a CO unit, the LI might have other
enemy units to deal with. Are we going to make the LI test to stay and test
again if charged by LC for example. Consider that if they are going to be
charged by LC, they will not be around in the recall phase, so will test for
nothing. If they choose not to test, the LC will know they are going to
recall and choose not to charge based on information they would not have had
in a real battle. This is jicky at best, and will lead to more of the old
Cav/Foot/Cav/Foot battle line that is already quite effective and not very
historical.

C. The rule that puts a command in retreat after 1/2 Broken/Shaken has
already ensured that there will not be masses of LI confronting the enemies
battle line, unless of course the enemy has taken a list without any light
troops, as we see so often. A few tournaments ago I saw an entire frontage
of pikes pinned for the bulk of the battle by four, six stand, LI units. Was
this a problem with the LI rules? NO ... the problem existed in his lack of
any light troops on one side. You see this over and over again, guys will
only buy shock troops, and then bitch about the rules that let the lighter
opponent dance around the battlefield. Lets make sure we are making rules
that are a response to REAL problems, not bad army list builders.

All in all, I think making the LI test or recall is a nice compromise
solution, but making them tip their hand before they fire or there is any
combat is just taking this way too far.

Just my two cents .... Greg

[Harlan Garrett]

Amen Greg ;-)

I have said this before and will say it again. I agree with Greg, don't
penalize those players who know how to use LI. Just because some players
scream foul since they don't know how to use LI or choice not to take LI is
know reason to slaughter the effects that LI can have on the battlefield.
Let look at the historical effects and purpose of LI, to slow or delay heavy
forces.

Harlan
(Renown lover and user of light troops)

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Regets [mailto:greg@...]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 11:07 AM
To: 'WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: Thoughts on the use of LI


I COMPLETELY agree with Steve on this one. The choice to test or recall
should not be made until the recall phase.

A. Darn near anything might happen to that CO unit. It might even shake, and
the LI would then be committed to recall. Lets not forget that the LI unit
has a SERIOUS movement advantage over its opponent and would not have to get
a note from its mother to run away!

B. In addition to being within 40p of a CO unit, the LI might have other
enemy units to deal with. Are we going to make the LI test to stay and test
again if charged by LC for example. Consider that if they are going to be
charged by LC, they will not be around in the recall phase, so will test for
nothing. If they choose not to test, the LC will know they are going to
recall and choose not to charge based on information they would not have had
in a real battle. This is jicky at best, and will lead to more of the old
Cav/Foot/Cav/Foot battle line that is already quite effective and not very
historical.

C. The rule that puts a command in retreat after 1/2 Broken/Shaken has
already ensured that there will not be masses of LI confronting the enemies
battle line, unless of course the enemy has taken a list without any light
troops, as we see so often. A few tournaments ago I saw an entire frontage
of pikes pinned for the bulk of the battle by four, six stand, LI units. Was
this a problem with the LI rules? NO ... the problem existed in his lack of
any light troops on one side. You see this over and over again, guys will
only buy shock troops, and then bitch about the rules that let the lighter
opponent dance around the battlefield. Lets make sure we are making rules
that are a response to REAL problems, not bad army list builders.

All in all, I think making the LI test or recall is a nice compromise
solution, but making them tip their hand before they fire or there is any
combat is just taking this way too far.

Just my two cents .... Greg


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[joncleaves]

If we change the phase, it will be to the end of prep shooting and not to the
end of the turn.

[joncleaves]

Just so we are all clear:

The LI-recall choice rule is in the game to stay. The only thing we MAY do
is move the choice to the end of prep shooting.