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Tournement Options

 
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Chris Bump
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2001 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


Keegan,

Let us know what you are thinking. We have been bantering a similar idea
around out here for some time and done nothing about it. I think that the
major tournaments will likely not change, but there is still plenty of room
for fun and flexiblity in the smaller Regional affairs.

Chris

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2001 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


I think these ideas are all excellent. If, at the 'end' of this discussion
we have something put together that has been tried a couple times, I'll put
it in rule 14.0 provided that is before the middle of May. If not, we'll
just put it on the website.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2001 9:07 pm    Post subject: Tournement Options


I bet Scott Holder will hate me for this, but it has nothing to do
with rules changes so Jon should be at ease........

I happen to LOVE tournement play but I don't think it captures the
full dimension of generalship. I seems almost chess-like in nature.
It seems very one dimensional. I line up my 1600 points ....you line
up your 1600 points and lets knock it around and kill everything we
can. I for one would like to see something new. So I have a
proposed tournement format. The attempt is to make each round more
of a decision making event with each player actually having two or
three lists from which he can choose prior to each round of the
tournement. The intent of the proposed tournement system is to do
three things.

1) Cause the players to face at least two different types of
situations (i.e., offense & defense) during the course of the
tournement and possibly a third type of situation(A race to seize a
piece of ground or something?).

2) Lessen the impact of the army list itself and increase the impact
of the general and the decsions made going into a given situation. I
believe a possible second order effect could be the decrease in
the "Killer List" or "Killer Troop Type" perception. Which I believe
is a tournement generated thought process.

3) Reward agressive behavior in the offense.

I will post the proposed tournement concept if there is genuine
interest.


Keegan

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Greg Regets
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:27 pm    Post subject: RE: Tournement Options


I would love to hear your ideas. We used to do all sorts of odd things in
the past.

1. Offense/Defense tournaments, where each player got one 1600 point list
and one 1100 point list. The tables were all slanted towards one side.
Before the game the players diced to see who was the attacker and who was
the defender. The defender got the side with all the terrain.

2. Conquest tournament, where the loser ended up the vassel of the victor.
Each turn the "kings" would set up the next battles for their vassels. In
the end, there would be only one winner, the "Emporer". There was some
system where you could challenge your lord also and get your freedom, but I
don't remember what it was.

3. Each player makes a 3000 point list and may select any 1500 points off
that list for each game ... but units that routed were dead for the
tournament and shaken units were done for the next game. If you ran out of
points later in the tournament, you got to pick up extra stuff, but of
course it was all IRR C MI & LMI with JLS Sh.

These kind of things work great for shall tournaments and one day things.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: jncsmom@... [mailto:jncsmom@...]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:07 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Tournement Options


I bet Scott Holder will hate me for this, but it has nothing to do
with rules changes so Jon should be at ease........

I happen to LOVE tournement play but I don't think it captures the
full dimension of generalship. I seems almost chess-like in nature.
It seems very one dimensional. I line up my 1600 points ....you line
up your 1600 points and lets knock it around and kill everything we
can. I for one would like to see something new. So I have a
proposed tournement format. The attempt is to make each round more
of a decision making event with each player actually having two or
three lists from which he can choose prior to each round of the
tournement. The intent of the proposed tournement system is to do
three things.

1) Cause the players to face at least two different types of
situations (i.e., offense & defense) during the course of the
tournement and possibly a third type of situation(A race to seize a
piece of ground or something?).

2) Lessen the impact of the army list itself and increase the impact
of the general and the decsions made going into a given situation. I
believe a possible second order effect could be the decrease in
the "Killer List" or "Killer Troop Type" perception. Which I believe
is a tournement generated thought process.

3) Reward agressive behavior in the offense.

I will post the proposed tournement concept if there is genuine
interest.


Keegan



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Kelly Wilkinson
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2001 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options

Why not try it here in Kansas City at our next tournament in April?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2001 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


Dear Jon,

Those tournement ideas are excellent. They might solve the problems people
were mentioning recently about points values for troops. I have to confess I
started Ancients with WRG 4th Edition ( ! ) about quarter of a century ago (
yes,really...). WRG mechanisms changed enourmously right up to 7th but the
basic points values for troop types have hardly changed at all (eg HI/LHI,
MI/LMI,LC, MC,HC, EHC, and {I think} SHC are the same as they were in 4th.
Truth is these troop types behave a lot differently now but have the same
points differentials that they had 25 years ago. For example there used to
be a great deal of tactical difference between HI and MI - in 4th the former
moved a lot slower but were far less vulnerable than MI ( there used to be
far more weapon types under 4th that made the difference more obvious). Look
at how they behave relative to each other under 7th (and I dare say Warrior)
Does their actual tactical performance now justify a 50% difference in troop
cost? It seemed to me there isn't that much until they're caught shieldless
and by that time things have gone dramatically bad anyway... Look at it
another way, if all the Seleucid guys had the choice of making their
phalangites HI in Warrior how many honestly would? Under 4th you did!

Another cost differential that I'm sure hasn't changed since 4th is that
between Reg's and Irreg's. Irreg's fight far better now (eg same rank
eligibility for a lot of weapon types - used not to be, I promise) and the
highly realistic impetuous charge mechanism can make them devastating. Irreg
cavalry are a real problem for the regular lads in Tournaments/club
competitions because they're a lot cheaper, go with a bang, don't die any
quicker,and in a small game who cares about maneouvre ?

I understand the Warrior set is done so no chance for a look at troop values
- but maybe the lists could help? If they're being developed with
Tournaments and one-off games in mind could they actually stipulate different
troop values to the basic rule set? I say this because what's sad has been
the complete demise of the classic Ancient armies from clubs and Tournaments.
Does anyone out their tournament play with Early Greeks, or Republican
Romans and win? I doubt it - in competition games you need maximum bang for
your dollar and you don't find it in armies of antiquity. I'm sure these
armies haven't lost their appeal but it's damned hard to competition-play
with them - the troops cost lots, maneouvre like pigs and haven't got weapon
systems that get a quick decisive result. But if they were cheaper because
of those drawbacks...?

If any of this sounds like criticism it isn't meant to be. If I'd known what
FHE was up to earlier I'd have certainly asked you to look at points values.
I suspect they haven't really been thought about in all the previous WRG
updates. But the rule mechanisms are good, I hope Warrior is a success - it
certainly desrves to be.

Bob (newcomer and general eavesdropper).

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2001 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


Again, Ed, we will consider a complete and playtested point values list. I
have had no takers to date.

We will not be considering single point value issues. Has to be a package
deal.

Jon


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2001 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options

Well, if it's still open to debate...

1.  Increase all Irreg cavalry types by one point.

2.  Decrease HI (Reg & Irreg) by one point

3.  Increase "A" and "B" class for Irregs by one point.

I can hear the Sassanids screaming from across the Atlantic!  My thinking behind 1. and 2. above is that the existing points differentials in those classes are no longer justified by the rules mechanisms. In particular Irreg cavalry do OK.  My thinking behind 3. is that   Irregs get a better deal out of an increase in morale grade (ESPECIALLY IRREG A's) and as a general rule (ie academics please leave me alone) these good quality troop types formed a smaller percentage of Irreg armies... Thats my theory.

I can't claim for a second that this is play tested but if anyone is setting up a tournament in the near future and they don't mind losing their mates with Irreg's do give it a try.  Come to think of it, you'll just find some new mates who'll blow the dust off their Greek and Roman armies of old...

Bob

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Chris Bump
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2001 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


Jon,

Could you give me a little more detail as to what you mean by a playtested
point values list. I think that I could convince many of those playing out
here to playtest such a thing, given a little guidance or perhaps more detail
as to what you mean.

Chris

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Ed Forbes
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2001 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


I agree completely.
The pt values have stayed mostly static while the interactions between
the troop types and weapon types have changed dramatically.

Jon had addressed this same question earlier, but I am unclear if he said
if points costing was fixed in place, still on the table to be changed,
or to be addressed in the lists.

Jon, is the points system considered fixed in place with the rules or is
this an area still in flux with changes possible?

Ed F

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 08:10:31 EST ellisonlegal@... writes:
> Dear Jon,
>
> Those tournement ideas are excellent. They might solve the problems
> people
> were mentioning recently about points values for troops. I have to
> confess I
> started Ancients with WRG 4th Edition ( ! ) about quarter of a
> century ago (
> yes,really...). WRG mechanisms changed enourmously right up to 7th
> but the
> basic points values for troop types have hardly changed at all (eg
> HI/LHI,
> MI/LMI,LC, MC,HC, EHC, and {I think} SHC are the same as they were
> in 4th.
> Truth is these troop types behave a lot differently now but have the
> same
> points differentials that they had 25 years ago. For example there
> used to
> be a great deal of tactical difference between HI and MI - in 4th
> the former
> moved a lot slower but were far less vulnerable than MI ( there used
> to be
> far more weapon types under 4th that made the difference more
> obvious). Look
> at how they behave relative to each other under 7th (and I dare say
> Warrior)
> Does their actual tactical performance now justify a 50% difference
> in troop
> cost? It seemed to me there isn't that much until they're caught
> shieldless
> and by that time things have gone dramatically bad anyway... Look at
> it
> another way, if all the Seleucid guys had the choice of making their
>
> phalangites HI in Warrior how many honestly would? Under 4th you
> did!
>
> Another cost differential that I'm sure hasn't changed since 4th is
> that
> between Reg's and Irreg's. Irreg's fight far better now (eg same
> rank
> eligibility for a lot of weapon types - used not to be, I promise)
> and the
> highly realistic impetuous charge mechanism can make them
> devastating. Irreg
> cavalry are a real problem for the regular lads in Tournaments/club
> competitions because they're a lot cheaper, go with a bang, don't
> die any
> quicker,and in a small game who cares about maneouvre ?
>
> I understand the Warrior set is done so no chance for a look at
> troop values
> - but maybe the lists could help? If they're being developed with
> Tournaments and one-off games in mind could they actually stipulate
> different
> troop values to the basic rule set? I say this because what's sad
> has been
> the complete demise of the classic Ancient armies from clubs and
> Tournaments.
> Does anyone out their tournament play with Early Greeks, or
> Republican
> Romans and win? I doubt it - in competition games you need maximum
> bang for
> your dollar and you don't find it in armies of antiquity. I'm sure
> these
> armies haven't lost their appeal but it's damned hard to
> competition-play
> with them - the troops cost lots, maneouvre like pigs and haven't
> got weapon
> systems that get a quick decisive result. But if they were cheaper
> because
> of those drawbacks...?
>
> If any of this sounds like criticism it isn't meant to be. If I'd
> known what
> FHE was up to earlier I'd have certainly asked you to look at points
> values.
> I suspect they haven't really been thought about in all the previous
> WRG
> updates. But the rule mechanisms are good, I hope Warrior is a
> success - it
> certainly desrves to be.
>
> Bob (newcomer and general eavesdropper).
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2001 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


In a message dated 3/31/2001 14:16:15 Central Daylight Time,
ellisonlegal@... writes:

<< Well, if it's still open to debate...

1. Increase all Irreg cavalry types by one point.

2. Decrease HI (Reg & Irreg) by one point

3. Increase "A" and "B" class for Irregs by one point. >>

Bob, are you saying you are submitting the above for consideration and that
all the other point values are ok with you?
Jon


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joncleaves
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2001 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options


In a message dated 3/31/2001 15:03:11 Central Daylight Time, cncbump@...
writes:

<< Could you give me a little more detail as to what you mean by a playtested
point values list. I think that I could convince many of those playing out
here to playtest such a thing, given a little guidance or perhaps more
detail
as to what you mean.
>>

Well, given that we have about a month or so and we can't possibly match the
thousands of games played with the current point system, I'd settle for
looking at a system where each of the changes appeared in three armies/games
against historical opponents using the old system.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2001 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Tournement Options

Dear Jon,

Yeah, I think the values are about right but I'd like some thought on those proposals if poss.  I suspect I might be being too hard on the Irreg cavalry types but I'm more confident about the cost for upgrading Irreg's to 'A' and 'B' and lowering the cost for HI.  The latter  two may take some of the sting out of Irregs and at the same time give some hope to the infantry armies that have gone out of fashion.

I don't want to see Irreg cavalry emasculated, but I just feel the mechanisms that disadvantage them (higher command points, bitch to prompt,can't maneouvre etc.) don't outwigh their fighting capability -ie. it's not hard to get them impetuous - in smallish, quick, competition-type games. The combination of low initial cost, low increase for double arming, and same points for good troop type is simply giving players a bit too much bang for their buck.  Historically these types were no doubt very effective but for clubs and competitions maybe some compromise is needed?

Bob

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