Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Mallard]

Jon,

I only print out any thread after you have commented or ruled. I am sure it
would be better for all if you copied the whole thread for your replies.

Not criticism - just an observation.

mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

--- On December 1 Christian Cameron said: ---

> Hi - I haven't contributed before. My name is Chris Cameron, and I've
> been playing for a while.

To give you an idea how long Christian has been playing, he's the one who taught
me how to play, and he goes back to at least the Kruse Smith days. The seed for
the ideas in my Skirmisher Doctrine piece come from Christian's patient
attempts to school me on tactics back in the day (Christian, if you haven't
seen this yet, it's at http://digitalpilgrim.com/play/warrior/skirmish.html).

> As a unit size argument is what's called for, I'll say that mine are in
> two sizes, 3E chariot units and twos. Threes, because Chariots can
> skirmish three deep and this can be very handy for generating
> firepower.

Let me point out here that the choice is unfortunately between being able to
break through (2E) and being concentrated for shooting (3E). The reason has to
do with the rules governing break-through moves. A 1E wide, 3E deep chariot
unit has the front of its third rank chariot 160p from the front of enemy in
contact (assuming 25mm). That means that in order to break through, that third
chariot has to, on the break-through move, get into the enemy body. In other
words, the chariot unit must roll long and be eligible under orders to go long.
So 3 deep chariot units are not a good bet for breaking through.


> Figure, on a 2E front, an 8 Figure unit of SHI, 2HCW vs 2E of Irr. B Lch
> (JLS). 2HCW vs Lch is a 4; 8@4 do 24, or 2 CPF. Lch charging Imp do 4
> horses at a 7, plus 2 crew (remember, this is 2E) at 0. The Lch's
> inflict 26. The SHI recoils disordered, and is never heard from again.
> I like to then break through (no immediate waver test as per the rules,
> sorry) but making room for a big unit of angry warriors to hit the
> disordered SHI next bound...

Jon, perhaps you can weigh in here, but the above example doesn't seem quite
right to me. The rule (11.223) says "Chariots fighting loose or open formation
troops or troops already unsteady without either side recoiling, breaking off
or being broken through have the same options." In the above example, the SHI
are recoiling, and also are not previously unsteady, so I would have thought
the chariots could not break through.

Christian, your main point still stands though: dismounting knights against even
2 horse LCh is a bad idea, and the presence of said chariots will preempt that
tactic.


> I again agree with Mark about later Hebrews. And yet, I say with a huge
> whine, that I can't think of a famous victory by the Later Hebrews over
> a notable opponent in period. Or rather, to be precise, I can't recall
> (and I'm a Bronze Age historian these days) a period source suggesting
> that the Hebrews were the Ne Plus Ultra of Chariot warfare...

Oh, come now. This list covers the armies of David and Solomon. It may well be
that their actual historical (whatever that phrase means) performance on the
battlefield may not have been spectacular, but that's hardly the point. These
guys aren't just historical, they're legendary. To suggest otherwise is a bit
like suggesting that Christ was no more in actual history than the leader of an
early intifada. While in some sense accurate, it really misses the point. As far
as colorful and historically appealing armies go, Later Hebrew has to rank up
there with Later Crusaders, Alexandrian Macedonian, and Marian Roman as one of
the most compelling. If it so happens that they also turn out to be a pretty
viable tournament army, that's hardly grounds for complaint. I wish Marians and
Alexandrians could do that well.

> A Hittite skirmishing Hch has the possibility
> of firing 10 figs from a one element front at range 40, and receiving
> fire at a 0.

Well, no. That's not how it works. Jon will have to weigh in here, but if as I
recall our earlier discussion on this point, it works like this:

There are two questions to answer about effective figures firing from a
skirmishing unit: (1) how many ranks are eligible, and (2) how many figures
from each eligible rank do you count? With respect to ranks, there are two
rules of thumb: (1) Skirmishing infantry have 2 ranks eligible, (2) Skirmishing
mounted have 3 ranks eligible. With respect to figures per rank, there's
only one rule of thumb: front ranks count full, while ranks beyond the first
count half.

Let's work a three chariot Hittite unit with runners on the base in skirmish
that is three ranks deep.

Starting with the back rank: the LI on the base are a third rank of foot, and
hence not eligible. The Chariot is a third rank of mounted and eligible. It has
2 crew that count as 3 for shooting purposes. It is a rank beyond the front
rank, hence it counts 1 1/2 figures.

Next the middle rank: The LI are a second rank of foot, and hence eligible, but
counting half since beyond the first rank. So 2 LI count as 1. The second rank
chariot counts the same as the third rank chariot, hence 1 1/2. Adding up, so
far we get 1 1/2 (third rank) + 2 1/2 (second rank) = 4.

Now the front rank: The Chariot crew here count full, so 3 figures. What about
the LI? From the Biblical Warrior addenda regarding LI on a chariot base: "The
LI on the base cannot fight in H-T-H but can shoot as if a second rank." Well,
LI in skirmish shooting as if from a second rank count half; half of 2 is 1.
So, tallying up again, we get 1 1/2 (third rank) + 2 1/2 (second rank) + 4
(front rank) = 8.

Still an impressive number, but not 10. And tough to shoot up since it counts as
shooting shielded in skirmish, and since it counts effectively as 18 figures on
a single element's frontage.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

> Figure, on a 2E front, an 8 Figure unit of SHI, 2HCW vs 2E of Irr. B Lch
> (JLS). 2HCW vs Lch is a 4; 8@4 do 24, or 2 CPF. Lch charging Imp do 4
> horses at a 7, plus 2 crew (remember, this is 2E) at 0. The Lch's
> inflict 26. The SHI recoils disordered, and is never heard from again.
> I like to then break through (no immediate waver test as per the rules,
> sorry) but making room for a big unit of angry warriors to hit the
> disordered SHI next bound...

Jon, perhaps you can weigh in here, but the above example doesn't seem quite
right to me. The rule (11.223) says "Chariots fighting loose or open formation
troops or troops already unsteady without either side recoiling, breaking off
or being broken through have the same options." In the above example, the SHI
are recoiling, and also are not previously unsteady, so I would have thought
the chariots could not break through.>>

They cannot in that example, if I am reading the example right - Chariots cannot
use that additional breakthrough option if the opponent recoils.


> A Hittite skirmishing Hch has the possibility
> of firing 10 figs from a one element front at range 40, and receiving
> fire at a 0.>>

Mark's analysis that this should be 8 (vice 10) is correct.

Jon