Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/5/2003 10:06:35 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

> So I find it very difficult to worry about the characterization of troops
> whose
> existence is somewhat hypothetical, and whose historical performance is
> undocumented.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

Mark, that is a very eloquent statement of our position here at FHE (as is
the entire mail from which that is clipped). Thanks for taking the time to
state it and doing so here on the group.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

I've been an ardent reader of Byzantine history for years, and I for one am
immensely appreciative of the work Paul has put into these lists, and of his
handling of the Varangian Guard. My main interest has been in the Paleologan
period, and I'll just make a couple of points.

First, the Paleologan lists are the only lists on which you don't have the
option of taking irregular Varangians. All the earlier lists give you a choice.
So it seems to me that if you feel you're not getting enough bang for your buck
playing Varangians as regulars, the solution is pretty simple: play them as
irregs. These guys are pretty fierce when played as irregs, they are consistent
with other Nordic foot soldiers of the period that show up on other lists, and
seem to act in accordance with their historical performance the vast majority of
the time. That's about all we can ask of a game, isn't it guys?

Second, with respect to the Paleologan period, when you can only get the
Varangians as regulars: I challenge anyone to find me a well-documented battle
in which Varangians were known to be involved. I can't find one. There is scant
evidence that they even existed at this stage. Assuming they did, there's a very
good chance that their role was purely ceremonial, and that they never actually
left the court of the Emperor.

So I find it very difficult to worry about the characterization of troops whose
existence is somewhat hypothetical, and whose historical performance is
undocumented.


-Mark Stone

[Kelly Wilkinson]

would this only be in reference to the Paeleogan period?

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:Quoting
"WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

I've been an ardent reader of Byzantine history for years, and I for one am
immensely appreciative of the work Paul has put into these lists, and of his
handling of the Varangian Guard. My main interest has been in the Paleologan
period, and I'll just make a couple of points.

First, the Paleologan lists are the only lists on which you don't have the
option of taking irregular Varangians. All the earlier lists give you a choice.
So it seems to me that if you feel you're not getting enough bang for your buck
playing Varangians as regulars, the solution is pretty simple: play them as
irregs. These guys are pretty fierce when played as irregs, they are consistent
with other Nordic foot soldiers of the period that show up on other lists, and
seem to act in accordance with their historical performance the vast majority of
the time. That's about all we can ask of a game, isn't it guys?

Second, with respect to the Paleologan period, when you can only get the
Varangians as regulars: I challenge anyone to find me a well-documented battle
in which Varangians were known to be involved. I can't find one. There is scant
evidence that they even existed at this stage. Assuming they did, there's a very
good chance that their role was purely ceremonial, and that they never actually
left the court of the Emperor.

So I find it very difficult to worry about the characterization of troops whose
existence is somewhat hypothetical, and whose historical performance is
undocumented.


-Mark Stone

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Jon,
You are taking that out of context. Mark was referring to the Paleogan
period Varangians who for the most part were merely a ceremonial unit which
there is no evidence of them participating in any battles. A unit that FHE chose
to include in that particular list. To characterize Marks comments as meaning to
say there is no evidence concerning Varangian Guards throughout the whole period
of their use is wrong in it's attempt to mislead the readership.

kelly wilkinson

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/5/2003 10:06:35 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

> So I find it very difficult to worry about the characterization of troops
> whose
> existence is somewhat hypothetical, and whose historical performance is
> undocumented.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

Mark, that is a very eloquent statement of our position here at FHE (as is
the entire mail from which that is clipped). Thanks for taking the time to
state it and doing so here on the group.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> <sigh> I do so miss my Peltastoi! Sadly Warrior has deleted
them from use as they have also deleted my Trapezetoi,



Kelly,

Not so! Peltastoi are alive and well. Check the Comnenan
Byzantine list, a personal favorite of mine, or the
paleologan/theodoran list. I run 24 figure units of Reg D JLS, B, Sh
with one element upgraded to Reg C to take advantage of "Attack"
charge opportunities. These guys are still elite! Also, my
understanding of the rules is that you can still have JLS,L, Sh
cavalry. They just use their JLS only as a missile weapon, not with
the lance in Hand to Hand, so Trapezitoi can still be useful. Or has
the troop type been completely eliminated from the LISTS themselves?
While i'm at it, another question. I think Kelly's right that it only
makes sense to take Varangians as Irreg B LHI, but should one go all
2hcw, half 2hcw and half JLS, or all 2hcw + JLS? It seems that 2hcw
w/out JLS is more cost effective, since you still get to fight 1 and
a half ranks with just 2hcw by list rule, but if you have JLS alone
in back, you'd get the JLS bonus and a rank and a half every bound.
Which would you guys buy?


Greek

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Bill,
I'm referring to the old Peltastoi that were LMI LTS, JLS, Sh from the Nike
list. And yes, the Trapezetoi are gone from the lists but will continue to
gather dust on my shelf in both 25 and 15mm <SIGH>. . .!

kelly

hrisikos8 <hrisikos@...> wrote:
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> <sigh> I do so miss my Peltastoi! Sadly Warrior has deleted
them from use as they have also deleted my Trapezetoi,



Kelly,

Not so! Peltastoi are alive and well. Check the Comnenan
Byzantine list, a personal favorite of mine, or the
paleologan/theodoran list. I run 24 figure units of Reg D JLS, B, Sh
with one element upgraded to Reg C to take advantage of "Attack"
charge opportunities. These guys are still elite! Also, my
understanding of the rules is that you can still have JLS,L, Sh
cavalry. They just use their JLS only as a missile weapon, not with
the lance in Hand to Hand, so Trapezitoi can still be useful. Or has
the troop type been completely eliminated from the LISTS themselves?
While i'm at it, another question. I think Kelly's right that it only
makes sense to take Varangians as Irreg B LHI, but should one go all
2hcw, half 2hcw and half JLS, or all 2hcw + JLS? It seems that 2hcw
w/out JLS is more cost effective, since you still get to fight 1 and
a half ranks with just 2hcw by list rule, but if you have JLS alone
in back, you'd get the JLS bonus and a rank and a half every bound.
Which would you guys buy?


Greek






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