Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mike Bard]

I figured that since other people are, I'd through my questions in...

I:. Flank Charges:

On page 42, in the first paragraph after the "Lining Up" example, it defines
a flank charge. The third sentence states "A body attempting a flank charge
must be able to reach the intended flank with at least one complete element
without exceeding it's tactical move."

None of the clarifications on the Four Horsemen site appear to modify this
specfic case.

To me it seems that this rule indicates that at least on complete element
facing (60mm) must have enough movement to legally contact the enemy flank.
In other words, if the charging body was only one element wide, then the
entire front of that element must have enough movement to make contact.

Some people have mentioned that they believe the rules (in general, not this
specific one) are written so that:
-. If the charging body does NOT begin behind the target enemy body flank
(as defined in 1.261 - Behind the Flank), then the entire frontage of one
element must be able to move fully into contact with the target enemy body
flank. In addition to the entire frontage of the charging body ending up
behind the target body flank of course.
- If the charging body DOES begin behind the enemy body flank, then only a
single point of the frontage of the charging body must be able to move into
contact with the target enemy body flank.

To make it even more confusing, the example on the bottom of page 42 states
that Body X may contact the target Body A's flank. The distance of the
charge is 140 paces and Body X contacts Body A at an unknown angle.
Unfortunately it does not make any mention of the entire frontage of Body X
being able to contact the flank of Body A. This suggests that this is not
necessary -- which seems to contradict the rule written above.

So... Which one of the following is correct?

Case 1: Charging body does NOT begin behind the flank of the target body.
1a: The entire frontage of one element must have sufficient movement to make
contact with the flank of the target body. If the flank of the target body
is less than 60 paces deep, then the depth is extended to check for a legal
contact.
1b. Any point of the charging body must have sufficient movement to make
contact with a point on the flank of the target body.

In both cases, the entire frontage of the charging body must end up behind
the flank of the target body.

Case 2: Charging body DOES begin behind the flank of the target body.
1a: The entire frontage of one element must have sufficient movement to make
contact with the flank of the target body. The flank of the target body
should be extended, both to its front and to its rear, to ensure this.
1b. Any point of the charging body must have sufficient movement to make
contact with a point on the flank of the target body.

Note that none of this contradicts or modifies the clarification for 6.165:
A flank charge made by a body that STARTS the charge move behind the
target's flank does not need to contact with all elements behind the flank
in order to qualify as a flank charge.

II: Recall Moves:

According to 6.36 "A recall move is a variable move straight to a body's
rear..." I can find no clarifications to this.

An enemy cavalry body armed with bow circles behind a LI body. It ends up
between the LI body and the LI body's table edge. Due to other enemy
bodies, the LI body has its rear facing directly towards the enemy cavalry
body. The enemy cavalry body shoots the LI body and causes 2 CPF. The LI
now must recall or waver. It chooses to recall. It's recall move must be
made directly towards its rear, or in this case directly towards the enemy
body that caused it to recall in the first place.

Is this a correct understanding?

If it is a correct understanding, then what happens if the LI recall move
ends up in it making contact with the enemy body that shot it in the first
place? Does it halt 40 paces away? Does something else happen?

Thanks,
Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

Mike, adding to your question, I believe it is possible to eschelon an
element into a flank contact, is that right?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Bard" <mwbard@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 2:22 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Various Questions


>
> I figured that since other people are, I'd through my questions in...
>
> I:. Flank Charges:
>
> On page 42, in the first paragraph after the "Lining Up" example, it
defines
> a flank charge. The third sentence states "A body attempting a flank
charge
> must be able to reach the intended flank with at least one complete
element
> without exceeding it's tactical move."
>
> None of the clarifications on the Four Horsemen site appear to modify this
> specfic case.
>
> To me it seems that this rule indicates that at least on complete element
> facing (60mm) must have enough movement to legally contact the enemy
flank.
> In other words, if the charging body was only one element wide, then the
> entire front of that element must have enough movement to make contact.
>
> Some people have mentioned that they believe the rules (in general, not
this
> specific one) are written so that:
> -. If the charging body does NOT begin behind the target enemy body flank
> (as defined in 1.261 - Behind the Flank), then the entire frontage of one
> element must be able to move fully into contact with the target enemy body
> flank. In addition to the entire frontage of the charging body ending up
> behind the target body flank of course.
> - If the charging body DOES begin behind the enemy body flank, then only a
> single point of the frontage of the charging body must be able to move
into
> contact with the target enemy body flank.
>
> To make it even more confusing, the example on the bottom of page 42
states
> that Body X may contact the target Body A's flank. The distance of the
> charge is 140 paces and Body X contacts Body A at an unknown angle.
> Unfortunately it does not make any mention of the entire frontage of Body
X
> being able to contact the flank of Body A. This suggests that this is not
> necessary -- which seems to contradict the rule written above.
>
> So... Which one of the following is correct?
>
> Case 1: Charging body does NOT begin behind the flank of the target body.
> 1a: The entire frontage of one element must have sufficient movement to
make
> contact with the flank of the target body. If the flank of the target
body
> is less than 60 paces deep, then the depth is extended to check for a
legal
> contact.
> 1b. Any point of the charging body must have sufficient movement to make
> contact with a point on the flank of the target body.
>
> In both cases, the entire frontage of the charging body must end up behind
> the flank of the target body.
>
> Case 2: Charging body DOES begin behind the flank of the target body.
> 1a: The entire frontage of one element must have sufficient movement to
make
> contact with the flank of the target body. The flank of the target body
> should be extended, both to its front and to its rear, to ensure this.
> 1b. Any point of the charging body must have sufficient movement to make
> contact with a point on the flank of the target body.
>
> Note that none of this contradicts or modifies the clarification for
6.165:
> A flank charge made by a body that STARTS the charge move behind the
> target's flank does not need to contact with all elements behind the flank
> in order to qualify as a flank charge.
>
> II: Recall Moves:
>
> According to 6.36 "A recall move is a variable move straight to a body's
> rear..." I can find no clarifications to this.
>
> An enemy cavalry body armed with bow circles behind a LI body. It ends up
> between the LI body and the LI body's table edge. Due to other enemy
> bodies, the LI body has its rear facing directly towards the enemy cavalry
> body. The enemy cavalry body shoots the LI body and causes 2 CPF. The LI
> now must recall or waver. It chooses to recall. It's recall move must be
> made directly towards its rear, or in this case directly towards the enemy
> body that caused it to recall in the first place.
>
> Is this a correct understanding?
>
> If it is a correct understanding, then what happens if the LI recall move
> ends up in it making contact with the enemy body that shot it in the first
> place? Does it halt 40 paces away? Does something else happen?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Bard
> That Greek Hoplite Guy
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

I figured that since other people are, I'd through my questions in...>.

Don't go out of your way, Mike...lol

<<I:. Flank Charges:

On page 42, in the first paragraph after the "Lining Up" example, it defines
a flank charge. The third sentence states "A body attempting a flank charge
must be able to reach the intended flank with at least one complete element
without exceeding it's tactical move.">>

True.

<<None of the clarifications on the Four Horsemen site appear to modify this
specfic case.>>

True.

<<To me it seems that this rule indicates that at least on complete element
facing (60mm) must have enough movement to legally contact the enemy flank.
In other words, if the charging body was only one element wide, then the
entire front of that element must have enough movement to make contact.>>

No, that is not what it means. It means an element has to get there, but not
that it has to contact with its entire front face BEFORE lining up.

<<Some people have mentioned that they believe the rules (in general, not this
specific one) are written so that:
-. If the charging body does NOT begin behind the target enemy body flank
(as defined in 1.261 - Behind the Flank), then the entire frontage of one
element must be able to move fully into contact with the target enemy body
flank. >>

No, in this case the entire front edge of the body must end up behind the flank.
If even one part of one element is 'in front' of the target, then it isn't a
flank charge. This is a restriction that ONLY applies to the case where the
charger is coming in from a position where he did NOT start behind the flank.

The revised rulebook will separate out the two types of charges
Case I - where the charger starts behind the flank. Doesn't need to be
prompted, light troops can charge anyone this way and the entire front edge of
the charger does NOT have to end behind the flank of the target.

Case II - starts NOT behind the flank - must be prompted, does not by itself
allow light troops any extra charges and must end with the front edge behind the
flank.
In the current rulebook, all the examples on pgs 42-43 are what will be Case II.

<< So... Which one of the following is correct?
1: Charging body does NOT begin behind the flank of the target body.
1a: The entire frontage of one element must have sufficient movement to make
contact with the flank of the target body.>>

No.

<< 1b. Any point of the charging body must have sufficient movement to make
contact with a point on the flank of the target body>>

Yes.

<<In both cases, the entire frontage of the charging body must end up behind
the flank of the target body.>>

Yes.

<<2: Charging body DOES begin behind the flank of the target body.
2a: The entire frontage of one element must have sufficient movement to make
contact with the flank of the target body. >.

No.

<< 2b. Any point of the charging body must have sufficient movement to make
contact with a point on the flank of the target body.>>

True.

<<II: Recall Moves:

According to 6.36 "A recall move is a variable move straight to a body's
rear..." I can find no clarifications to this.

An enemy cavalry body armed with bow circles behind a LI body. It ends up
between the LI body and the LI body's table edge. Due to other enemy
bodies, the LI body has its rear facing directly towards the enemy cavalry
body. The enemy cavalry body shoots the LI body and causes 2 CPF. The LI
now must recall or waver. It chooses to recall. It's recall move must be
made directly towards its rear, or in this case directly towards the enemy
body that caused it to recall in the first place.

Is this a correct understanding?

If it is a correct understanding, then what happens if the LI recall move
ends up in it making contact with the enemy body that shot it in the first
place? Does it halt 40 paces away? Does something else happen?>>

Please see the clarifications for the answer to this:

"11.1 (Pg 73) If an eligible body can choose to recall under this case but the
recall move would place it closer to an enemy body, it takes a waver test
instead. "

Jon

[joncleaves]

Mike, adding to your question, I believe it is possible to eschelon an
element into a flank contact, is that right?>.

That is possible, but does not alter the restrictions or rules on flank charges.

J