Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Don Coon]

I am disorderd foot and am charged by a mounted body. I fail my waver
and become shaken. In the HTH combat phase I take 15 casualties (and 1
CPF), and do 2 casualties (and 0 CPF). I now must recoil disordered.
When do I test waver? Before the 40p recoil or after? It matters as at
the point of HTH contact I am 110p from a friendly who will have to test
waver if I break. If I recoil then test I will be over 120p from the
friendly and immune to waver. If I test prior to recoiling the friendly
requires a waver test. Also If I fail the waver test where do I rout
from? Do I rout from the original point of HTH contact, or from the 40p
recoil spot? Patrick and I ruled that the waver test occurs at the
point of HTH contact and the rout supercedes the recoil move. Is that
correct?

We played 2 games of little warrior and it was a blast. Each game took
about 2.5 hours. Game 1 went 5 bounds and game 2 went 6. In both game
the victor was one unit away from demoralization himself. The small
board neutralizes cavalry a little bit, and we ran into one problem. At
one point in the game Patrick had a cavalry unit that could not counter
or retire (he was 20p from the rear board edge). Due to a body to his
front he also could not approach. This was disconcerting to both of
us. Imagine his 6 man cav with a 3 wide by 2 deep friendly body
directly to his front in HTH with an enemy (the closest known enemy).
To either side (but not beyond flank) about 200p away were other enemy
in HTH with other friendlies. Now he has no threat to counter from, and
can not move in any direction that will not take him closer to an enemy
(therefore can not retire). He is stuck. Is that just the way it is?
It seems like there should be some way to move. What did we miss?

Also when an expendable unit breaks, does it turn and rout or try to
burst thru the enemy? Does each expendable unit break and rout
individually, or does the whole body do it as one (imagine a 6 unit
expendable body) Your expendable rules are very tenuous, and we deal
with expendables on a weekly basis with Patricks Yuan Mongols. Please
try to get us some expendable rules to playtest soon.

Don

[joncleaves]

5.141 states: "Waver tests are taken immediately, as soon as the condition
requiring a waver test occurs."

But, just for guys like you, we'll change the combat result in question to
"become disordered and recoil."

Note that there is no waver test for seeing someone break, just routing or
destroyed. Broken is a state of cohesion (or lack thereof), routing is a
form of movement.

[Don Coon]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> 5.141 states: "Waver tests are taken immediately, as soon as the condition
> requiring a waver test occurs."
>
> But, just for guys like you, we'll change the combat result in question to
> "become disordered and recoil."

Thanks. Every loophole closed is one less headache later.

> Note that there is no waver test for seeing someone break, just routing or
> destroyed. Broken is a state of cohesion (or lack thereof), routing is a
> form of movement.

Sorry, poor wording. Result is the same though eh? I break, then rout
from the point of breaking.

Thanks

Don

[joncleaves]

<<Sorry, poor wording. Result is the same though eh? I break, then rout
from the point of breaking.>>

Actually, it does matter. Say a unit is shaken. It takes three per in prep
shooting and must take a waver test. It fails. It is now broken. It is not
yet routing. The only broken troop that makes a rout move before the hand to
hand phase is one who is charged and is not in contact. So this unit
breaking will not cause a waver until it makes its rout move.

Jon

[joncleaves]

<< Good point and we have been playing this wrong. We have been routing as
soon as breaking occurs. We will stop this practice and play the rule
as it is written.

Don >>


You probably have not been playing it wrong. You do whole combats all the
way through routing during the hth phase, before moving onto the next whole
combat. Thus the importance of combat direction. It is just that there are
a couple cases where a unit breaks before hth and must wait until it comes up
in combat direction to begin routing.

[Don Coon]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> <<Sorry, poor wording. Result is the same though eh? I break, then rout
> from the point of breaking.>>
>
> Actually, it does matter. Say a unit is shaken. It takes three per in prep
> shooting and must take a waver test. It fails. It is now broken. It is not
> yet routing. The only broken troop that makes a rout move before the hand to
> hand phase is one who is charged and is not in contact. So this unit
> breaking will not cause a waver until it makes its rout move.
>
> Jon

Good point and we have been playing this wrong. We have been routing as
soon as breaking occurs. We will stop this practice and play the rule
as it is written.

Don

[joncleaves]

A shaken unit is charged. It takes a waver test immediately. It fails. It
is now broken. Broken troops that are charged make a their rout move in the
charge phase (unless already in contact). The chargers may catch the broken
troops (and hack them in the back) and may not. The broken troops may be at
13+ fatigue and may be destroyed by the rout move, with the chargers still
making their move.

Since you asked the question, the language needs to be cleaned up in the
rules to make it clear that this is what happens. I will do so today!

Jon

[Don Coon]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
>
> << Good point and we have been playing this wrong. We have been routing as
> soon as breaking occurs. We will stop this practice and play the rule
> as it is written.
>
> Don >>
>
> It is just that there are
> a couple cases where a unit breaks before hth and must wait until it comes up
> in combat direction to begin routing.

Yes that is what we have been doing wrong. Ex. Shaken when charged.
Fails waver. Should stand and receive charge? Or rout? Does it fight
or rout when its combat turn comes?

Don

[Todd Kaeser]

Jon,
Just making sure I get it straight. Even though a unit is broken in
combat no unit takes a waver test upon seeing its rout until the End Phase?
If that is true is there really a need to see which way combats are
determined (right to left or vice versa) bacause all combats are then
considered simultaneous with the rare condition of being destroyed. No one
tests until the end.
Am I understanding this correctly?

P.S. As a "rules lawyer"
* (4.51) mounted cannot frontally charge steady close formation foot
using P or LTS under Probe. However a mounted unit is not prohibitted from
charging them under Hold - they only need to be prompted.

*(5.143) recovery from shaken - a united recovers when hand-to-hand
opponents recoil, break-off, or break. It does not stipulate "all" so if my
one unit is fighting two units and 1 recoils then I revert to disordered?
Sounds this way in the rules.

Questions
*When is an A standard, or PA standard considered "lost" - wnen the unit
breaks, routs, or is destroyed or general kille or wounded?
* How does one loot a camp? I have no idea and had to fudge it in the
tournament we ran.
(5.231) - typo in the third bullet by "taking"

Thanks,
Todd

----------
From: JonCleaves@...
To: <WarriorRules@egroups.com>
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Waver testing.
Date: Mon, Nov 6, 2000, 8:41 AM


<<Sorry, poor wording. Result is the same though eh? I break, then rout
from the point of breaking.>>

Actually, it does matter. Say a unit is shaken. It takes three per in prep

shooting and must take a waver test. It fails. It is now broken. It is
not
yet routing. The only broken troop that makes a rout move before the hand
to
hand phase is one who is charged and is not in contact. So this unit
breaking will not cause a waver until it makes its rout move.

Jon



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