Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Just toying around, I slapped together a list for us to chat about.
It is fairly obvious the majority of this army is just there to
defeat enemy shooters, but I think it lacks enough punch/variety in
the mounted to effectively utilize there supremely interesting and
cheap foot:

CNC +2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
2x Sub as above
1x2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
2x2E IrgC SHC L/sh
2X12E RgD MI LTS/Pa CB
1x6E RgC HI/MI 2HCT/Pa
2x6E RgD LI B
1x6E RgC LHI CB
1x4E RgC/D HI/MI P/sh

Small...

Punch comes in two waves from the SHK SHC and the P and 2HCT armed
infantry. the two large infantry units are there to attracted the
enemy while the weakling LI just hold off some sector and slow the
enemy long enough to get the SHC into position.

It seems an attractive army to run but tricky to do so well. Any
thoughts...

Wanax

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/5/2004 19:42:09 Central Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:
CNC +2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
2x Sub as above
1x2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
2x2E IrgC SHC L/sh
2X12E RgD MI LTS/Pa CB
1x6E RgC HI/MI 2HCT/Pa
2x6E RgD LI B
1x6E RgC LHI CB
1x4E RgC/D HI/MI P/sh>>

The following is 100% personal opinion...

My first reaction was: "Wow, usually I look for one or two foot weakenesses
to focus on in the other guy's army. This list has five....."

Mysecond reaction to this is - why not Feudal French instead?
The German Militia is better taken like brigans: Irr C MI front 2HCT, Pa,
back JLS. Given this, why not take the brigans in the FF list? Ok, so you can't
get the knights past EHK - but:
The FF Kn can be Irr A
The FF has peasants
The FF has almughavars
The FF has an S standard to get all those brigans impetuous (something I used
earlier this week to good effect)

As far as your list itself, it *seems* like all that close foot will provide
a good spring board from which to launch K attacks. It actuality, I think
something like this is more likely:

1. You'll want to use that SHC on enemy archers, but enemy K will keep them
from showing themselves.
2. Units like Brigans will rise this summer in overreaction to the perceived
trend towards missile armies. These units and almughavars/franks, etc will
kill that foot you have. You'll have to use your K to protect them and that
will free enemy K to choose the battle.
3. If the terrain isn't perfect, you'll lose your flanks.

Again, this is ONLY personal opinion.

And some shock, given my perceptions of your style, that the A's and peasants
of Feudal French don't have you buying figures....lol

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/6/2004 08:19:02 Central Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:
The FF have something I'm not looking for in a new army. Namely
what I have now. I am looking to maintain my close order bias while
at the same time develop a non-missile based anti-missile army of
manuver. >>

Cool. Then this list makes much more sense, given that concept. Let me see
what I can come up with....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon, excellent commentary. See below:

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/5/2004 19:42:09 Central Daylight Time,
> spocksleftball@y... writes:
> CNC +2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
> 2x Sub as above
> 1x2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
> 2x2E IrgC SHC L/sh
> 2X12E RgD MI LTS/Pa CB
> 1x6E RgC HI/MI 2HCT/Pa
> 2x6E RgD LI B
> 1x6E RgC LHI CB
> 1x4E RgC/D HI/MI P/sh>>
>
> The following is 100% personal opinion...
>
> My first reaction was: "Wow, usually I look for one or two foot
weakenesses
> to focus on in the other guy's army. This list has five....."

Yes so it would appear ...

>
> Mysecond reaction to this is - why not Feudal French instead?
> The German Militia is better taken like brigans: Irr C MI front
2HCT, Pa,
> back JLS. Given this, why not take the brigans in the FF list? Ok,
so you can't
> get the knights past EHK - but:
> The FF Kn can be Irr A
> The FF has peasants
> The FF has almughavars
> The FF has an S standard to get all those brigans impetuous
(something I used
> earlier this week to good effect)

The FF have something I'm not looking for in a new army. Namely
what I have now. I am looking to maintain my close order bias while
at the same time develop a non-missile based anti-missile army of
manuver. the FF, like Normans and crusaders, are a move forward and
charge army.

My current building program is a Feudal or Medieval manuver army, a
Roman army based upon Legions, and a chariot army. I have all the
Norman/Crusader crazies I need, I have a Nikephorian "killer" army,
so I'm casting around for other interesting armies with troop types
considered "lesser" valued like MI, MC, and SHC. :)

I'm certainly not wedded to this army, as I push the list forward for
discussion. Your points below are an excellent starting point.

>
> As far as your list itself, it *seems* like all that close foot
will provide
> a good spring board from which to launch K attacks. It actuality,
I think
> something like this is more likely:
>
> 1. You'll want to use that SHC on enemy archers, but enemy K will
keep them
> from showing themselves.

This is a concern to be sure, thus the need for regular foot. I want
to run the foot like opening and closing doors. the door opens (one
flank retracts) and SHC charge out impetously and cancel enemy
charges against the foot. I haven't run all the options yet, but I
see the need to refine the anti SHK aspect of the list.

> 2. Units like Brigans will rise this summer in overreaction to the
perceived
> trend towards missile armies. These units and almughavars/franks,
etc will
> kill that foot you have. You'll have to use your K to protect them
and that
> will free enemy K to choose the battle.

Yes, but I'm ignoring this trend as temporary. 2HCT without a sheild
is just so much routing foot if disordered and/or standing still. I
picked up the one 2HCT unit as a counter just in case, and I like
your idea of JLS second rank; in fact had the Germain militia been
allowed B rather than CB, I would have put the archers in a third
rank behind JLS...

> 3. If the terrain isn't perfect, you'll lose your flanks.

Granted! This is the other concern I have on any SHK based regular
army.

> And some shock, given my perceptions of your style, that the A's
and peasants
> of Feudal French don't have you buying figures....lol

From two feet away even 25mm can be German or French depending upon
the list written ;)

Like I said, I'm working to expand my playing abilities with troops
and weapons systems that are undervalued.


Wanax

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 19:47:58 -0000
> From: "Wanax Andron" <spocksleftball@...>
> Subject: Wrecking ball Feudal Germans
>
> Just toying around, I slapped together a list for us to chat about.
> It is fairly obvious the majority of this army is just there to
> defeat enemy shooters, but I think it lacks enough punch/variety in
> the mounted to effectively utilize there supremely interesting and
> cheap foot:
>
> CNC +2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
> 2x Sub as above
> 1x2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
> 2x2E IrgC SHC L/sh
> 2X12E RgD MI LTS/Pa CB
> 1x6E RgC HI/MI 2HCT/Pa
> 2x6E RgD LI B
> 1x6E RgC LHI CB
> 1x4E RgC/D HI/MI P/sh
>

Man, these business trips are really cutting into my available Warrior
commentary time; gonna have to talk to my boss about that....

Anyway.

The goals, as I understand them here, are:
(1) use knights for shock
(2) use close order foot for line
(3) present an army that "neutralizes" missile-strong armies.

Particularly with respect to (3), I believe the various German lists are
under-utilized, and this attempt deserves praise for looking in a subtle and
unepxected direction. The key here is having one unit of shielded SHC, and
units of SHK. Nobody resists shooting like SHC, and the German lists are the
only ones on which you can get both SHC and SHK. There are definitely some
intriguing possibilities by following through on that line of thought.

Just giving this a quick read, here are some things I would adjust:
I don't think the LHI CB unit serves any purpose. This isn't a shooting army,
it's an anti-shooting army. Yes, I know the point is to draw enemy missile fire
into the LHI CB since they count as shooters directly to front, but, frankly,
they don't do this very well. They are shieldless, and will do fine when they
get blasted on bound N in skirmish, but on bound N+1, when they are rallying,
going to get blasted again, and must make a counter to get into skirmish,
things get dicey.

Is that all the LI you can get? Seems to me there was more. Maybe some LI CB...

The big 2HCT unit needs to be split up. I would make 2, or even 3 units out of
this. With HI,Pa in the front it isn't very worried about missile fire, and for
20 points you get a lot more maneuver capability out of it, as well as the
all-important ability to stagger your charges: the first 8 figures charges into
a pike block without losing, and then the next 8 figure unit charges into a
halted pike block and starts winning.... That sort of thing.

If you're scrounging for points I might drop HI from the pike unit. This isn't a
front line unit anyway, but something that will be lurking just off the line
and looking for targets of opportunity. There's some benefit to having an
element of HI in it, but overall it won't matter much.

The cavalry contingent seems about right here. I don't think you need more
kngihts unless you're playing at higher point levels.

I do wonder about LC though. Don't take any unless it's regular, but -- again,
can't remember -- if there are some Reg C LC available, perhaps with CB, then a
4 figure unit of such would be useful.


-Mark Stone

Thanks for you input Mark. My comments below:

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> > CNC +2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
> > 2x Sub as above
> > 1x2E RgB SHK/EHK L/sh
> > 2x2E IrgC SHC L/sh
> > 2X12E RgD MI LTS/Pa CB
> > 1x6E RgC HI/MI 2HCT/Pa
> > 2x6E RgD LI B
> > 1x6E RgC LHI CB
> > 1x4E RgC/D HI/MI P/sh
> >

> The goals, as I understand them here, are:
> (1) use knights for shock
> (2) use close order foot for line
> (3) present an army that "neutralizes" missile-strong armies.
>
> Particularly with respect to (3), I believe the various German
lists are
> under-utilized, and this attempt deserves praise for looking in a
subtle and
> unepxected direction. The key here is having one unit of shielded
SHC, and
> units of SHK. Nobody resists shooting like SHC, and the German
lists are the
> only ones on which you can get both SHC and SHK. There are
definitely some
> intriguing possibilities by following through on that line of
thought.

Thanks Mark, this is exactly why I'm looking at it. :)

>
> Just giving this a quick read, here are some things I would adjust:
> I don't think the LHI CB unit serves any purpose. This isn't a
shooting army,
> it's an anti-shooting army. Yes, I know the point is to draw enemy
missile fire
> into the LHI CB since they count as shooters directly to front,
but,

You are correct here, but...
I wanted something that could help my SHK against enemy SHK types.
Given that the enemy kniggits will possibly have LC or some other
cute and hurtful troop helping, I want the ability to shoo that stuff
away. I agree it is a weak unit, but I don't have many options other
than close order archers. Then I don't want to wait until bound 9 to
get off the one shot close order archers typically get :)

This is also a very expensive unit!


> Is that all the LI you can get? Seems to me there was more. Maybe
some LI CB...

I can get CB armed LI, but unless facing knights these guys are just
meat on the hoof. Even facing K they are meat ;)

>
> The big 2HCT unit needs to be split up.

I thought about this too, and will except it now with your
endorsement. Use them as "jabs" in 2E or 4E units in column. Fair
enough :)

> If you're scrounging for points I might drop HI from the pike unit.
This isn't a
> front line unit anyway, but something that will be lurking just off
the line
> and looking for targets of opportunity. There's some benefit to
having an
> element of HI in it, but overall it won't matter much.

I am actually considering dropping the pike or upping it to 8E all
RgD MI. Either it needs to contain a flank or turn into something
more useful. As I work the concept, I can't get the pikemen into
position unless they are on the line.

>
> The cavalry contingent seems about right here. I don't think you
need more
> kngihts unless you're playing at higher point levels.
>
> I do wonder about LC though. Don't take any unless it's regular,
but -- again,
> can't remember -- if there are some Reg C LC available, perhaps
with CB, then a
> 4 figure unit of such would be useful.

I can get 8 IrgC LC B Hungarians, but I'm leary of trying to hold a
flank, fight or even slow an enemy with shieldless immobile LC. I
usually hunt this sort of crap down in my opponants armies ;)

I can get some HC L/sh or J/sh sargents, but only 8 and I find HC in
the skirmish role to be problematic at best.

I tend to avoid allies. There are some usefull allies here with LC
more MI and K, but mainly it is just more of the same with a probable
unreliable general. Rolling for reliability is probably not a good
option for me :)

Wanax

[Mark Stone]

> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 12:12:30 -0000
> > Is that all the LI you can get? Seems to me there was more. Maybe
> some LI CB...
>
> I can get CB armed LI, but unless facing knights these guys are just
> meat on the hoof. Even facing K they are meat
>

Not at all true. They are regular LI. Buy a couple of 4 figure units, and
they'll easily pay for themselves. They can, for example, force march to buy
space, or march into a woods and hold it for enough bounds so that you can hit
home somewhere else. Putting LI B into these small units is a bit of a waste,
because bow is such a useful weapon you want in larger units. But regular LI CB
are definitely handy.

> >
> I am actually considering dropping the pike or upping it to 8E all
> RgD MI. Either it needs to contain a flank or turn into something
> more useful. As I work the concept, I can't get the pikemen into
> position unless they are on the line.
>

Yeah, I don't have a good answer for you here. On the one hand, you can get
shielded pikemen on this list, a medieval rarity. So there is a strong
temptation to buy them and try to put them to use. But that turns out to be
harder to do than one might think, given the other things you must/want to buy
on the list.

> I can get 8 IrgC LC B Hungarians, but I'm leary of trying to hold a
> flank, fight or even slow an enemy with shieldless immobile LC. I
> usually hunt this sort of crap down in my opponants armies
>
> I can get some HC L/sh or J/sh sargents, but only 8 and I find HC in
> the skirmish role to be problematic at best.
>

Avoid all that. The HC aren't worth buying, and the Hungarian LC will give you
just enough to get yourself into trouble. If they were regular, that'd be a
different story, but if your light cav is irreg, you either need a lot of it or
none at all.


-Mark Stone