Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

I commented on the "history talk" subforum about the Theban sublist to CW 17 that would represent the liberating army of Epaminondas of Thebes and his lieutenant Pelopidas who commanded the sacred band. Here is my latest competition list designed to approximate that historical event:

Subgen #1 (Pelopidas) as HI+ 1E Reg A HI +2E Reg B HI + 8E Reg B MI) LTS, Sh = 303

Subgen #2 Reg B HC JLS + 1E Reg B HC JLS = 95

Thessalian Ally as Irr B HC JLS + 1E Irr B JLS = 110

2E Irr C Thess. LC JLS = 41
2E Irr C Thess. LC JLS = 41
4E Irr C Thess. LC JLS = 57
2E Reg C Thess LI JLS = 26
4E Reg C Thess. LI S, Sh = 42
2E Reg C Thess. LI JLS, Sh = 26

CinC (Epaminondas) as HC JLS + 1E Reg B HC JLS = 145

2E Reg C LI Peltasts JLS, Sh = 26
2E Reg C LI Peltasts JLS, Sh = 26
2E Reg C LI Peltasts JLS, Sh = 26
2E Reg C LI Peltasts JLS, Sh = 26
4E Reg C LMI Iphicratids LTS, Sh = 74
4E Reg C LMI Iphicratids LTS, Sh = 74
4E Reg C LMI Peltasts LTS, JLS, Sh = 90
2E Irr C LMI Acarnanians JLS, Sh = 49
2E Irr C LMI Acarnanians JLS, Sh = 49
12E Boiotian Hoplites LTS, Sh = 276
(1E Reg A HI, 3E Reg B HI, 8E Reg B MI)

This is 20 units for a total of 1602 points. Plenty of decent regular LI to screen with. Some quality LC to envelop and harass with and help win the skirmish battles. A line of hoplites and iphicratids impervious to cavalry, and some peltasts, HC, and Irr LMI for select reserve to punch whatever sticks to the hoplites. Dull and grinding, but durable and flexible. Not a killer but hard to crack perhaps. What do you guys think?

[Ewan McNay]

Well...
...ok: I hate this . I hate the Irr LC, even more so in small units; I hate the Irr LMI ditto (and even more so); I hate the LMI LTS-only guys who are everything that's bad about peltasts and nothing that's good. [Seriously, I would offer money to anyone taking 2E units of IrrC LMI JLS, Sh to a tournament and winning.] I even dislike the LI - they're great, but with thisd many you can afford to have some larger 4E units for greater flexibility and resilience. There's nothing to hit with, and not enough hoplites to make a line, and the hoplites are horrifically expensive for minimal benefit.

I can't think of a single feature of this list that I like, Bill. Don't do it!

[Sorry. I know, I should stop holding back.]

[Bill Chriss]

I am afraid you are right on all counts, Ewan. The conversion of Thessalian cav to Irr C, and the inability to get Reg B LI or peltasts pretty much emasculated this army sublist as compared to previous versions. I believe I will keep playing Hellenistics and pretend they are really earlier in time, but still Greek. I was trying to figure a new way to make this work. There is a theory I've seen well-demonstrated (e.g., Greg Regets is a proponent) that it's a good thing to have small second line LMI units that can go impetuous, hit hard at high factors, and squeeze into flanks and overlaps where your main line is already fighting. However, 4E would be better than 2, I suppose, and good shock cavalry (Oh, the heresy!) perhaps better than either.

[Ewan McNay]

[Frank Gilson]

Speaking of Hellenistic Greek...it is the more 'playable' of the armies you can call Greek, as Bill mentions.

My current listing is:
Achaean
CinC & 5 Reg B HC L 145
Sub & 5 Reg B HC L 95
6 Reg B HC L 64
12 Reg C LC JLS,Sh (1.5) 106
4 Reg C LC JLS,Sh (1.5) 42
2 units of 4 Reg B LC L 76
2 units of 32 Reg D(4 C) MI LTS,Sh Pigs 300
3 units of 8 Reg C LI S,Sh 126
4 units of 4 Reg C LI JLS,Sh 104
12 Reg C LI B,Sh/B 52
2 units of 32 Reg D(4 C) MI P,Sh 220
4 units of 8 Reg B LMI LTS,JLS,Sh 232
8 Reg C LI B,Sh/B 38 = 1600
24 units, 2 commands, 57 scouting

The LI and LC combine to skirmish and refuse part of the table frontage, while attempting to overrun enemy lights that are fewer or mis-used.

Meanwhile, the lancers and higher morale small peltast units back up the line of hoplites and pike.

Here's how the pigs are used against enemy foot:
Have a HC L unit charge the enemy foot unit simultaneously with the pigs. The pigs disorder the enemy foot unit prior to any combat calculations, so the HC L are in pretty good shape to push back the enemy, causing a waver, preserving the disorder, and setting up well for the hoplites to follow in and cause a rout.

Frank

[Bill Chriss]

[John Steil]

Here's how the pigs are used against enemy foot:
Have a HC L unit charge the enemy foot unit simultaneously with the pigs. The pigs disorder the enemy foot unit prior to any combat calculations, so the HC L are in pretty good shape to push back the enemy, causing a waver, preserving the disorder, and setting up well for the hoplites to follow in and cause a rout.

Frank


Question: If the unit being charged is only two elements wide won't the HC contact the expendable flaming pigs during alignment causing the HC to take a waver test? Would this not be a problem? Is this not also an issue with any expendable charge in with any mounted? Just my two
cents.

John Steil
Republican Indian

[Ewan McNay]