Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

Actually, speaking as one who plays with such things (and who loosed my pigs at Dave with little effect at the NICT last year), I must agree with Dave here, even though it's against my own best interest. If you check the archives, I believe you'll find that Jon has said as much before. At one point I gathered all these incindiary rulings (I think around June of 05 or 06) and printed them out so people at H'Con would believe me. They were on the previous forum, I believe, and they'll be responses to my questions, which Jon patiently answered.

Mark, you may be thinking of the fact that AFTER they test and even IF they shake, the LMI can still let loose with the incindiaries as a charge response and the incidiaries are not themselves shaken, being "out of play" in game terms until ignited, and not being like other "fighting troops" for HTH purposes anyway.

My shorthand way of remembering all this about loose troops faciing mounted is that the loose troops always test when charged by mounted UNLESS: 1. across bad terrain; 2. it's a converted charge after routing a unit in front of the loose troops; 3. the loose troops are themselves charging impetuously. That's my rule of thumb, anyway. And of course I stand to be corrected, although I'm sure I'm right about the pigs, unless Jon changed something recently in response to other questions.

[joncleaves]

"Based on that, Mark's second bullet point that says "the body from which the carts counter-charged makes no charge response, including no waver test for being charged by mounted, as the carts, rather than the body, are making the charge response." needs to be corrected. "

You are right, Dave.

[joncleaves]

Also please note that I have already pointed out this issue - and cannot find where it came up again

my response to Mark's post contianing that bullet is cut in here below...


[[One minor point - the unit launching the expendable is, in fact, the one doing the responding.

"Igniting incendiary expendables as a countercharge *is* a charge response by the accompanying unit and may be made against impetuous and/or mounted bodies."]]

[Kel Wilkinson]

Jon,

Then to be totally clear for the dummy (me ), is the response by the launching unit to counter charge rather than waiver testing, verses mounted in the open (if it is a loose or open unit)? Or must one waiver test even though the unit is launching the bacon/steak/camels? Thanks for helping me out with this!

Kelly

[Frank Gilson]

If a loose or open order body, in the open, responds to a charge by mounted, it must waver. If a shaken body responds to a charge, it must waver. As launching an incendiary expendable is a charge response, any such body would waver...

I have a question, Rules 5.52, page 33, Waver Tests and Charge Responses. The Waver test for a charge response is taken BEFORE the charge response is decided.

So, shaken or broken status happens before launching? Thus, a newly shaken body could still launch the incendiary expendable...but a body that just broke, due to that charge response waver, as it was already shaken, could not?

Jon, as incendiary expendables can be disordered...if the launching body were to be disordered, would the launched indendiary expendable be disordered?

[Frank Gilson]

The incendiary expendable clarifications state that "They never suffer hand to hand casualties, but may suffer support shooting casualties."

Also, "The naptha-factor damage done to a mounted body is performed and factored as shooting, but counts as hand to hand casulaties."

Am I to assume, then, that an incendiary expandable hitting a mounted unit will cause rally-cured combat disorder under 5.222, A body takes twice as many hand-to-hand casualties as its opponents and receives at least 1 CPF?

Because the Incendiary Expendable does 1CPF, yet the mounted unit does Zero back?

Frank

[Bill Chriss]

I read Jon as saying in more than one place already that the loose foot unit is "itself" responding to a mounted charge BY igniting the expendable. Hence the loose foot unit is "responding to a charge by mounted," and under 5.52 must waver test, if in the open.

The tradeoff is that the mounted charger must also test if and when contacted by the expendable, and the contacted element of the mounted charger must stop at that contact/test. This is pretty well explained already in the clarifications of 16.27: "igniting incindiary expendables as a countercharge *is* a charge response BY THE ACCOMPANYING UNIT."

If the charger were a foot unit, then the accompanying unit being charged would obviously have no such test to take, and neither would the charger. Also, the charger would continue its movement without regard to the incindiary. However, once contacted by the incindiary, the charging foot would be disordered and enter combat in that condition.

So, as Frank has said elsewhere, the way you use these things is either: 1. launch them at mounted, forcing the target to test; or 2. launch them at foot, forcing the target to enter combat THAT BOUND in a state of cessation-cured disorder. This obviously only matters if the target is already in HTH with another friendly unit who can benefit from the disorder, or if the target is simultaneously charged by mounted or impetuous foot who would be the only troops allowed to join the expendable (which counts as impetuous mounted) in charging the same target unit in the same bound.

As far as I can tell, that's the only utility of incindiaries afte Jon's most recent official clarifications to 16.27.

Right Jon?

[Bill Chriss]

[Bill Chriss]

Actually, upon reflection, the clarification may be right already, since it is hard to visualize doing HTH casualties to incindiaries. My experience is that incindiaries usually hit tired, disordered, and down several on the dice anyway, since they are usually support shot to hell.

[joncleaves]

I so hate these things, I am going to use them on all of you in two weeks... don't say I didn't warn ya...

Ok, I am losing track, so let me summarize some basics and see what is left to clear things up after this summary.

The unit responds, not the IE.
Waver tests are not responses.
IE do not take HTH casualties, so IE will disorder mounted in most situations. Note that it might not do 1CPF or even any hth casualties at all. But it is possible.
A shaken body can ignite IE.
From 16.27: "Incendiary expendables may not be ignited by a broken unit."
Until ignited, an IE is out of play. Therefore not disordered by the accompanying unit becoming shaken as that happens before ignition.

good?

[browntj007]

If anyone needs to borrow these - I have like 8 of them already painted and ready to go, all done up in my favorite NASCAR color schemes.

[Frank Gilson]

Heh...I think this thread clears things up.

Let's see how the hated incendiary expendables perform at NICT. I expect reports!

...as I won't be there, sadly...

Frank

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Frank,

I'm gonna miss ya as we always get matched up at least once at historicon. I wish the work gods were kinder to you!

Kelly

[Bill Chriss]

Is it perhaps the case that the theme will be producing a renaissance of incindiary expendables??? I am just so excited. I always feel this way before H'con, at least before the first loss, that is.....

[Frank Gilson]

16.27 - Incendiary expendables do not initially appear on the table. ...These expendables remain off table until ignited.
...
(then)
Incendiary camels disorder cavalry as in 5.221. They are considered to be in the same position as the accompanying unit until released and will disorder cavalry within 80p of their charge path when ignited. If the charge target is closer than the incendiary elements depth, to the accompanying unit, simply resolve the effects.

QUESTION #1 :
Can an unignited camel cart cause disorder? I'd rule 'no' because it 'remain(s) off table until ignited'.

QUESTION #2 :
A unit that has an incendiary expendable, that is, which is accompanying it, would it be disordered at any time by Elephants as a body containing animals normally is? I'd rule 'no' here again because the incendiary remains off table. What about when it's ignited and launched?

Frank