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2007 NICT List Commentary
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject:

OK, OK. I'm going to kick off the list analysis for this year's NICT, which you'll probably get in bits and pieces over the coming weeks. Leading off, our once-again champion:
Quote:
Derek Downs, Early Burgundian
CnC + 5 SHK L SH IB PA 205
6 SHK L SH IB 133
6 SHK L SH IC 127
6 SHK L SH IC / HC L SH IC 103
6 HK L SH RB - English 70
20 4 LHI P / 12 LMI P / 4 LMI 2HCT RB 102
20 4 LHI P / 12 LMI P / 4 LMI 2HCT RB 102
20 4 LHI P / 12 LMI P / 4 LMI 2HCT RB 102
6 HC CB IC 61
4 LI CB RD 18
4 LI CB RD 18
4 LI CB RD 18
4 LI CB RD 18
4 LI HG RC 22
4 LI HG RC 22
4 LI HG RC 22
16 LMI LB 1/2 2HCW RC stakes - English 70
24 LMI LB 1/2 2HCW RD stakes 76
24 LMI LB 1/2 2HCW RD stakes 76
32 LMI LB RD stakes 82
24 MI LB 1/2 2HCW RD 70
8 LMI LB 2HCW RD 34
2 Organ Guns 3 crew RC 50

1601

I've looked at this list a lot over the years, and given strong consideration to playing it. In the end I settled on 10 Independent States as being a list with a similar playing style that worked better, but that's a personal choice. There's a lot to like here, but some significant negatives as well. Let's look at both.

Positives: One theme I see when you look at who finished first or second in the NICT or in Cold Wars over the last five years is this: armies with more than 120 figures of shooters. Shooting is powerful in Warrior, and represents one facet of a strong attack. It is possible to win without a lot of shooting -- Dave Markowitz did it with Alexandrian Imperials -- and you have to have more than just shooting or we'd all be playing Midianite Arabs. But shooting is a great foundation. In that vein, Early Burgundian is one of the finest shooting armies out there.

You don't want to pay for morale class shooters don't need, and most of the shooters here are D class. This is also one of the few lists on which CB and LB can mix in the same unit, giving you two full ranks of shooting out to 120p. Note, however, that Derek did not avail himself of that option. He should have, though. Mixed LB/CB units are the only units that can match elephants with LI on the base element for element in frontage and still 2 CPF all the way out to 120p. That means in all likelihood any elephants must face a waver to get through to these guys.

So even though Derek's shooters aren't optimized, he has a lot of them and they are plenty potent.

The other great thing about Early Burgundians is the Swiss. You get some real shock foot troops, which knight armies are all too often lacking. Of the lists on which Swiss are available, this may be the best (Italian Condotta, a very different playing style from Early Burgundians, is the other contender).

So the longbowmen shoot things up, and throw down stakes if anything too menacing wanders near. The Swiss charge things, and the knights wait to follow up on whatever disrupting opportunities are created by the Swiss. A simple, but very solid battle plan.

Note that there's enough LI here to throw up an initial screen and buy some maneuver room on the first couple of bounds. And generally this army should have no trouble covering frontage in any kind of terrain.

So that's all good. Now the negatives:

Wasted points! You're buying a heavy cav CB unit that does nothing. It cannot fight, it shoots poorly, and is itself incredibly vulnerable to shooting. Just points thrown away. Likewise with the organ gun. Not enough range or density of shooting be of any value, and incredibly vulnerable itself to both shooting and hand-to-hand. So there's 111 points utterly wasted.

Irr C knights! I know that Ewan thinks these guys are acceptable but, well, he's wrong. These guys need to be in the thick of the action, where waiver tests often need to be taken, and have a base 1/3 chance of failing. In the presence of elephants or other causes of unease, they have a 50/50 chance of failing. Not what I want from shock troops.

I suppose it's a negative that you'll routinely be outscouted, but I regard that as a minor negative. This army's battle plan is not a big secret, is largely independent of enemy setup, and comes with enough LI screen to create the necessary maneuver room.

Overall, I'd say this list has a max potential of about 8.5 out of 10, and I give Derek 8 of 10 for this effort. Lose half a point for not mixing the CB with the LB.

On to our next victi... er, candidate:
Quote:
Ewan McNay, Sassanid Persian

1 CinC alone on his elephant, Irr B, with PA 115
2 Irr B Subgeneral as SHC L,B,Sh + 1E IrrB EHC L,B* 135
3 Irr B Subgeneral as SHC L,B,Sh + 1E IrrB EHC L,B* 135
4 Irr B Subgeneral as SHC L,B,Sh + 1E IrrB EHC L,B* 135
5 4E Irr B HC L,B 121
6 3 Irr B El: 2 with 4 crew and 1 with 2 crew 175
7 2 Irr B El, both with 4 crew 133
8 6E Reg D LC B* 82
9 6E Reg D LC B, with 2E made elephant proof 74
10 4E Reg D LC B* 58
11 2E Reg D LC B*, 1E JLS 38
12 2E Reg D LC B*, 1E JLS 38
13 12E Irr LI (11D, 1C) B, 6E w/ Sh 63
14 6E Irr LI JLS, Sh (5D, 1C) 51
15 4E Reg D LI S, Sh 34
16 4E Reg D LI JLS, Sh 34
17 4E Reg D LI JLS, Sh 34
18 4E Reg D LI JLS, Sh 34
19 8E Reg MI (7D, 1C): 4 LTS, JLS, Sh / 4 B 110

* indicates elephant-proof 1599


I'll be relatively brief on this one, as we've all seen it and commented on it before.

The combination of elephant-proof SHC and elephants is a really powerful shock combination. The elephants' greatest fear is shooting, and the SHC are essentially impervious to shooting and hence play a great role in splitting fire to keep the elephants protected. In turn, the elephants also make it very difficult to charge the SHC since the SHC are -- to most troop types -- a cause of unease to charge frontally and the elephants are a separate cause of unease.

In addition, there is an abundance of decent light troops here, including lots of my favorite light troop type: regular, shielded LI.

To get regular LC you have to accept it being D class, and this is something of a negative. It limits what you can aggressively do with your light troops. Anyone who has played Ewan, however, will recognize that he has plenty of tactics for being aggressive with even D class light troops.

There's also a complete lack of rough terrain troops here, which can be a problem against certain armies if you have bad luck with terrain picks. However, managing your terrain picks properly (road, open, open, hill) should almost always give you the large section of open ground this army requires.

I don't like the lone elephant CinC. I realize that extends the range of unease the elephants can project, and in a pinch you could do something odd like join this staff element to an elephant-proof unit of LC to form another ad hoc elephant unit. But overall, this just seems like a waste of shock power to me.

That's my only complaint with the way the list is bought. I give this list a max potential of 9 out of 10, and Ewan an 8.5 for the way he has it bought.

3rd place went to Dick Hurchanik and his Feudal Japanese. Since that doesn't seem to be anywhere in my mail archive, I'm guessing that's one that Frank reviewed, so we can continue the analysis once Frank posts it here. Frank?


-Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject:

If I may add a correction to the results ...
I played Alexandrian Macedonian in the 25mm open, not Alex Imperial.

(small difference, but important to me)
Noel.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:24 am    Post subject:

Peanuts! Woohoo!

Quote:

Derek Downs, Early Burgundian
CnC + 5 SHK L SH IB PA 205
6 SHK L SH IB 133
6 SHK L SH IC 127
6 SHK L SH IC / HC L SH IC 103


I know Mark worries about having some C class strike troops but, well, he's wrong Wink. I think one of the benefits of having such a huge line of homogenous shooters is that you can react to wherever the enemy decides to pick the fight, and in such an environment having 2 C-class knight units around just doesn't worry me. I think it's more likely that I'll lose knights than shooters, at least as a first loss, in which case their morale is irrelevant.

Quote:

20 4 LHI P / 12 LMI P / 4 LMI 2HCT RB 102


This is an OK way to take Swiss, btw. I don't rate these guys that highly, in all honesty, but they do give a second-string to the attack options which is needed.

Quote:

24 MI LB 1/2 2HCW RD 70


Target!

I probably agree on the mixing of LB and CB that Mark mentions; however:

Quote:

I suppose it's a negative that you'll routinely be outscouted, but I regard that as a minor negative. This army's battle plan is not a big secret, is largely independent of enemy setup, and comes with enough LI screen to create the necessary maneuver room.


I think that this is a bigger deal than Mark does, just because it essentially guarantees that a large chunk of your army is likely to do nothing. Combine that with the wasted points from HC and artillery, and you're almost guaranteed a significant point imbalance against you at the schwerpunkt. [And indeed, I achieved that in the game I played against Derek, only to promptly throw it away..]

Quote:

On to our next victi... er, candidate:
Ewan McNay, Sassanid Persian


Can you see Mark carefully seasoning his dish of revenge? Smile.

Quote:

There's also a complete lack of rough terrain troops here, which can be a problem against certain armies if you have bad luck with terrain picks. However, managing your terrain picks properly (road, open, open, hill) should almost always give you the large section of open ground this army requires.


Picking second, especially if you then miss the road, can be a pain; but in general the flanks get cluttered and you have an open central sector. I can live with that. The LI JLS, Sh are going to take anyone the whole game to track down and kill in terrain, so you essentially have safe flanks in such a setting. It also occasionally - less often these days - catches folk slightly off-guard just how far toward their baseline we're likely to start the battle.

Quote:
I don't like the lone elephant CinC. I realize that extends the range of unease the elephants can project, and in a pinch you could do something odd like join this staff element to an elephant-proof unit of LC to form another ad hoc elephant unit. But overall, this just seems like a waste of shock power to me.


I think I've commented on this previously, but putting the CinC into an El unit really hurts - he has to be in the front rank, and as a single-crewed model is not very good when he's there. As a lone El, he can do a couple of main things: accompany the MI and stay safe while advancing, advance between a couple of LC units against enemy mounted to provide both unease and an initial cause of disorder prior to shooting for (we hope) a second disorder, more easily rally units if it happens to be needed, and indeed join a LC unit on occasion.

Good stuff, Mark. Next!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject:

The following list needed some minor corrections, so this isn't exactly as it was played at HCon. Frank did the vetting on this one, so he or Scott may have the updated copy. Still, this gives is close enough to give a good sense of the list and its intent:

Quote:
Tim Brown, Tarascan
1: 2 CIC w/ PA & 7 LMI, 2HCT, D, Sh R/A - B 182
2 LMI, B, 2HCT ( detachment unit 1) R/B 53
2: 2 Sub w/ 7 LMI, 2HCT, D, Sh R/A - B 112
2 LMI, B, 2HCT ( detachment unit 2) R/B 53
3: 2 knights LMI, 2HCW, D, Sh R/A-B 62
2 LMI, B, 1HCW ( detachment unit 3) R/B 45
4: 2 knights LMI, 2HCW, D, Sh R/A-B 62
2 LMI, B, 1HCW ( detachment unit 4) R/B 45
5: 2 knights LMI, 2HCW, D, Sh R/A-B 62
2 LMI, B, 1HCW ( detachment unit 5) R/B 45
6: 2 knights LMI, LTS, D, Sh R/A-B 62
2 LMI, B, LTS ( detachment unit 6) R/B 45
7: 2 knights LMI, LTS, D, Sh R/A-B 62
2 LMI, B, LTS ( detachment unit 7) R/B 45
8: 4 LMI, B 1/2 Sh R/C 66
9: 4 LMI, B 1/2 Sh R/C 66
10: 4 LMI, B 1/2 Sh R/C 66
11: 4 LMI, B 1/2 Sh R/C 66
12: 3 priests LMI, 2HCT, D/1HCW, B, Sh I/A (2)-B 79
13: 2 priests LMI, 2HCT, D /2HCT, B, Sh I/A-B 64
14: 4 scouts LI, 1/2 1HCW, S,Sh 1/2 B R/C 42
15: 4 scouts LI, 1/2 1HCW, S,Sh 1/2 B R/C 42
16: 4 scouts LI, 1/2 1HCW, B,Sh 1/2 B R/C 42
17: 4 Peasants LMI 1/2 S,Sh 1/2 B R/C 66
18: 4 Peasants LMI 1/2 S,Sh 1/2 B R/C 66
1600


Two comments right away: first, I don't pretend to know what's up with all the detachments; I'd have to see Tim play this on the table to understand what he was up to. Second, Tim was my dark horse pick to win it all after I had reviewed all the lists.

The second comment requires some explanation. Picking an army and devising a list from that army is not a simple matter of finding a "A list" army and buying it right. The real art is in matching the army and list to the player. Most of us would probably flounder trying to figure out how to operate the beast listed above. But it has "Tim Brown" written all over it. Tim excels at finding the nooks and crannies in the rules that allow for both tactical innovation and the element of suprise that comes from having your opponents not know entirely what you're up to. So I'm sure there are some clever nuances I'll miss here, but I also expect there were some clever nuances that took opponents by surprise on the table - hence my bet on Tim. That, and he's a really, really good player.

Enough preamble. On to the list.

New World Warrior has always come with a signature playing style: large quantities of high morale, regular LMI who can shoot while shielded. This makes them a dangerous threat because of the missile fire they put out, because they can operate in any terrain, because they don't really fear shooting themselves, and because with the high morale you generally have to take them down one unit at a time.

The negatives are a lack of frontage held, and a lack of mounted. The latter makes it difficult to back up the LI, as enemy LC can run them down without fear of retribution, and also makes it difficult to chase down enemy LI and other skirmishing troops, who in turn don't have to fear being caught by mounted.

This list exhibits all of these virtues and all of these weaknesses, although Tim has done an admirable job of filling as much frontage as he can.

Now a bit of a tangent: while the circulating combatants rule certainly makes Romans more durable, no one has really figured out how to make an open tournament viable army out of this. A large part of the problem, I suspect, is that HI are expensive to begin with, and having to do two lines of them cuts down on frontage so severely that you just can't hold enough frontage to be effective. Add to that the fact that HI are slow, and can't really close with the enemy quickly enough before the Roman flanks start collapsing, and it's just a tough problem to solve.

What would be nice is if your circulating combatant Romans could be MI instead of HI to save points. In fact, make them LMI so they have some speed and flexibility in terrian. Oh, and it would be really cool if they could also have a missile weapon, so they could skirmish out of trouble and do damage in cases where they haven't yet closed to combat.... Oh wait. I've just described Tarascans. Granted, 2HCT isn't as potent as HTW, but it's close, and given all the other benefits, it's worth it.

So I think that's what Tim has done: found the better Romans, or, put another way, found the best list with circulating combatants. I suspect his main line units would be nearly impossible to rout. What with detachments that can evade backk and join their parent, and ranks that can circulate to create another round of fighting steady in the front rank, and the high morale class, it would be many bounds before one of these units broke from failed wavers for disordered while disordered, and there's no easy way to do 3 CPF to them frontally.

So the battle becomes a real contest of terrain picks and maneuver, as the Tarascan opponent attempts to pin down most of the Tarascan line with lights and skirmishers, and find an end point on the line to concentrate and start rolling up flanks. The latter is no easy matter against LMI who successfully counter 5 out of 6 times. And the unwary opponent will find himself in a killing zone of dense shooting if he doesn't maneuver his attack perfectly.

Tarascans is a tough army to beat, but also a tough army to win big with. Definitely a very complicated army to play. I give the list a max potential of 7, and give Tim a 7 for how he's bought it (with the generous assumption that there's more to the detachments than meets the eye).

More later.


-Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject:

Yay!!!!! <munches popcorn> Great stuff, Mark, keep it coming!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject:

Grabbing a little time on my lunch break to throw some more out there:

Quote:
Dave Markowitz, Early Burgundian
1603 Points 5 Scouting

C&C/2 Irr B SHK L, SH + 3 SHK L, SH, PA 205
Sub/2 Irr B SHK L, SH + 3 Irr C SHK, L, SH P 142
6 Knights SHK L, Sh Irr C 127
6 Knights EHK L, SH Reg C 106 (580)

24 Swiss Reg B
8 LHI P
8 LMI P
8 LHI 2HCT 146
24 Swiss 146
24 Swiss 146 (438)

2 Organ Guns 50
6 HC CB 61 (111)
24 Reg D LMI LB, ˝ Sh, stakes (1 E C) 80
24 Reg D LMI LB, ˝ Sh, stakes (1 E C) 80
24 Reg D LMI LB, ˝ Sh, stakes (1 E C) 80
24 Reg D LMI LB, ˝ Sh, stakes (1 E C) 80
16 Reg D LMI LB, ˝ Sh, 50
16 Reg D LMI LB, ˝ Sh, 50 (420)
4 LI Reg D CB 18
4 LI Reg D CB 18
4 LI Reg D CB 18


Imagine my surprise and amusement seeing two of our very top players submit the same list. Most of the comments I made about Derek's list apply here as well, and the lists have been bought similarly.

Here's the chief difference: Dave's LB units are purely shooters, no attempt to even hint at a hand to hand threat by giving them 2HCW. Dave has also invested less in LI so that he can beef up the Swiss some.

Again, no mixed LB/CB units, which I think is a mistake, though a smallish one.

With the Swiss, I'm not sure what the right way is to go. It may be that Dave didn't notice the errata that allows Swiss units to be 80% pike instead of a max of 75%. I didn't notice it either, and criticized Derek's submission as illegal until Derek pointed me to the erratta. It may be that Dave did notice the erratta but actually wanted two stands of 2HCT in each Swiss unit.

I think I like Dave's approach better. It makes the Swiss units a little bigger and thus a little harder to shoot up. And with 2HCT fighting in a rank and a half, having two stands can be very powerful when following up and expanding in a winning combat.

Still, this is largely a matter of playing style, and I always expect Derek to favor quantity over quality. Dave probably shouldn't make both stands of 2HCT LHI, though. One stand is enough; leave the other at LMI.

I give this one an 8 out of 10.

Continuing:
Quote:
Todd Kaeser, Knights of Saint John
1599 pts – 21 scouting

Grand Master Pierre d’Aubusson w/ 5 Knights of Justice Reg A SHK L,, ˝ Sh + PA (229)
Fra’ Antoine Gautier w/ 2 Knights of Justice + 3 Serving Brethren Reg A/B SHK L, ˝ Sh + P (156)
Turcopiler John Kendal w/ 2 Knights of Justice + 3 Serving Brethren Reg A/B SHK L, ˝ Sh + P (156)
2E Knights of Justice Reg A SHK L, ˝ Sh (130)
4E Marinarii Reg C LHI CB,2HCT, ˝ Sh (130)
4E Marinarii Reg C LHI CB,2HCT, ˝ Sh (130)
4E Marinarii Reg B LHI CB,2HCT ˝ Sh (146)
6E Rhodian Militia Reg D LMI CB ˝ Sh (70)
6E Rhodian Militia Reg D LMI CB ˝ Sh (70)
4E Rhodian Skirmishers Reg D LI CB (26)
2E Rhodian Skirmishers Reg D LI CB (1Cool
6E Greek Bowman Reg C LMI B ˝ Sh (94)
6E Greek Bowman Reg C LMI B ˝ Sh (94)
2E Turkopoles Reg C LC Jls,B,Sh (50)
2E Turkopoles Reg C LC Jls,B,Sh (50)
2E Turkopoles Reg C LC Jls,B,Sh (50)

This is one of my very favorite armies from a historical perspective, and clearly one of the "A list" armies for all of Warrior in an open tournament format. (My "A list" consists of Knights of Saint John, Alexandrian Imperial, Later Carthaginian, and Khmer; there are some other candidates, but those are the obvious members.)

The key is to realize that this is really an infantry army masquerading as a knight army. You attack with the Marinarii, and the knights play only a supporting role. This army also puts out a tremendous amount of shooting; Todd is over my benchmark of 120 figures just on loose order foot alone, and the lights through in another 24 figures of shooting.

There isn't a lot I would change here, but I do have a few quibbles. You can get 2 more stands of LC and probably should. While the LC doesn't fight in a rank and a half, it is regular, and armed with both B and JLS, so very capable. None of the LI here is bought with Sh, which I also think is a mistake. Shields make LI dramatically more durable against LC, and also mean you can push away shieldless enemy LI on your own. Todd has also bought more than the minimum of LMI CB, which I think is a mistake. These are your least useful shooters, so take the minimum and put them all in one big unit.

There are some other options that are more a matter of taste. I try to have points available for a stone wall to put the LMI CB guys behind. That really anchors one flank very cheaply. And I actually take some LMI handgunners. They can do real damage to close order foot who aren't properly screened, they drive off enemy lights, and ratchet up the shooting power of the army a bit.

Overall, though, a very imposing army bought in a mostly reasonable manner. I give this list a potential of 10, and I give Todd an 8.5 for the way he has it bought.


-Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Early Burg

I'll make a couple of comments, then drag up some lists submitted to me for commentary.

Dave M. has his Swiss units organized such that they can operate two elements wide as necessary, which they would want to do in some circumstances (opposed by mounted.) I find the 2 extra elements of armor not necessarily worth the 16 points per unit.

In an email conversation, Dave stated that he made a concious choice not to use LB/CB, but rather entirely LB. He said that he believed his units would be in skirmish very often, negating the benefit of the CB. In order to make 2 CPF against certain elephant units as Mark suggest above, you actually have to stand at the ready to receive them should you fail or they pass waver...when you'd likely want to evade.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Matt Kollmer's Toltec

There were a few Central and South American armies this event.

Matt Kollmer ran Toltec.

New World Warrior List #7 w/Tepanec CinC

CinC Reg A/B w/PA standard 2E LMI LTS,S,Sh
Sub Reg A/B w/P standard 2E LMI LTS,S,Sh
3 units of 2E Irr A LMI 2HCT,JLS,Sh/1HCW,JLS,Sh
6E Irr C LMI JLS,Sh
4E Reg C LMI 2HCT,JLS,Sh
6 units of 4E Reg B(1E A) LMI LTS,S,Sh
2 units of 4E Reg C LMI LTS,S,Sh
2 units of 2E Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh
4E Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh
18 units, 2 commands, 4 scouting points

Matt operates a LOT of slingers here, which can fire shielded and breach armor. He gets to use circulating combatant rules which is a plus. Generally high morale and regularity means passed wavers and made counters, largely.

This army would need to cut down table frontage as with the reserve of Irr A troops and generals, it covers only 3/4 of the table and part of that is with a very vulnerable Irr C LMI JLS,Sh unit. The Irr A guys also can't use circulating combatant rules.

Would I use this list? Probably not...no mounted, and you basically have to let your opponent determine how to close with you, fire your slings, roll your counter and waver dice and hope for the best.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Han Chinese - Steven Hollowell

Steve submitted the following Han list. He received 0 points in the event, so I'm not sure what happened.

CinC w/PA on Reg A 4h LCh
Sub similar
2 units of 2E Reg C HC L,CB
4E Reg C LC B
4 units of 4E Reg B(1 A) LHI 2HCT,CB,Sh/2HCT,CB
2 units of 4E Reg D MI LTS,Sh/CB Caltrops
4 units of 2E Reg D LI B
2 units of 5E Irr D LI JLS,Sh/JLS
2 units of 4E Reg B LMI JLS,B,Sh/JLS,B
2E Irr A 2HCT,Sh/JLS,Sh
4E Irr A 2HCT,Sh/JLS,Sh
19 units, 2 bodies, 2 commands, 27 scouting

I think the generals on lone light chariots are a mistake. They can't do anything other than provide some unease here and there...not a good value for points spent. I'd put them in heavy chariot units (although I'd likely have one light chariot unit for swift unease generation and to charge unsupported LI.)

I don't like the HC L,CB...and you can get Irr C LC B without incurring that requirement.

Frank
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Kelly Wilkinson Camillan

Kelly brings out the Camillan Romans as follows:

CinC 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh
2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh
7 units of 4E Reg C MI HTW,Sh
4E Reg B HI LTS,Sh
4 units of 6E Reg C MI LTS,Sh
3 units of 6E Reg C LI LTS,JLS,Sh
2E Reg C LI LTS,JLS,Sh
2E Reg C LI LTS,JLS,Sh/JLS,Sh
2 herds of flaming pigs
18 units, 3 bodies, 1 command, 14 scouting

I don't really quibble with how Kelly has organized this list...and I like the LI LTS,JLS,Sh through which the legions can use circulating combatants. I just don't think the list is strong enough to get anybody that far.

As an example, the flaming pigs really benefit from having solid mounted (lancers) to send in with them at an infantry target...no such chance here.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Matt Kollmer's Toltec

Frank Gilson wrote:
There were a few Central and South American armies this event.

Matt Kollmer ran Toltec.

New World Warrior List #7 w/Tepanec CinC

CinC Reg A/B w/PA standard 2E LMI LTS,S,Sh
Sub Reg A/B w/P standard 2E LMI LTS,S,Sh
3 units of 2E Irr A LMI 2HCT,JLS,Sh/1HCW,JLS,Sh
6E Irr C LMI JLS,Sh
4E Reg C LMI 2HCT,JLS,Sh
6 units of 4E Reg B(1E A) LMI LTS,S,Sh
2 units of 4E Reg C LMI LTS,S,Sh
2 units of 2E Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh
4E Reg C LI 1HCW,S,Sh
18 units, 2 commands, 4 scouting points

Matt operates a LOT of slingers here, which can fire shielded and breach armor. He gets to use circulating combatant rules which is a plus. Generally high morale and regularity means passed wavers and made counters, largely.

This army would need to cut down table frontage as with the reserve of Irr A troops and generals, it covers only 3/4 of the table and part of that is with a very vulnerable Irr C LMI JLS,Sh unit. The Irr A guys also can't use circulating combatant rules.

Would I use this list? Probably not...no mounted, and you basically have to let your opponent determine how to close with you, fire your slings, roll your counter and waver dice and hope for the best.

Frank Gilson


I like this list less than Tim Brown's. I love the sling; a much better missile weapon than dart in all respects. But I'm not happy with the extensive use of LTS. While LTS gives you more resistance than 2HCT against enemy mounted, the difference isn't all that great, and 2HCT is a vastly superior hand to hand weapon for loose order troops.

Also, Matt has definitely not bought enough LI here. More expensive loose order units will end up trying to delay the enemy when frontage runs out, and the lack of LI limits how much frontage the army can hold.

I give this list a 6 for maximum potential, and I rate this about a 4.5 list overall. Sorry Matt!


-Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Bill Low Countries

How 'Low' can you go?

Bill Low ran Low Countries, and here is his list.

CinC w/PA 2E Irr B SHK/EHK L,Sh
Sub similar
2 units of 2E Irr C SHK/HC L,Sh
3 units of 8E Reg C HI/MI P
2 units of 4E Reg C HI/MI 2HCT,Sh
3 units of 4E Reg C LHI CB
2 units of 2E Irr A LMI JLS,Sh
2 units of 4E Reg C LI B
2 units of 2E Reg C LI B
18 units, 2 commands, 8 scouting

Bill didn't select and run this list because he felt it was 'killer' and would 'dominate'. He had other reasons. It has a lot of flaws from the standpoint of 'best lists'.

Frank
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:31 am    Post subject: Jamie White Khmer

Now Khmer is a list that you put near the top in power, but not necessarily for obvious reasons. Derek has used it to great effect.

It has access to perhaps the 'most' elephants you could run, and most of them are high morale. They can have or be detachments in order to render them nearly immune to shooting, the traditional defect to elephants. There are some useful support troops too.

CinC JLS,B w/PA on Irr B El w/ armed crewman JLS
2 units of 2E Reg C LC JLS,Sh El proof
2 units of 2E Reg A/B HC JLS,Sh El proof
3 units of 2E Reg A LMI JLS,Sh as parent of 2E Irr B El JLS,B/JLS

2E Reg D LMI B as parent of Sub JLS,B w/P armed crewman JLS and another such elephant
4E Reg D LI B
4E Reg D LI B
4E Reg C LI JLS,Sh
4E Reg C LI JLS,Sh

2E Reg D LMI B as parent of Sub JLS,B w/P armed crewman JLS and another such elephant
4E Reg C LHI JLS,B,Sh
4E Reg C LMI JLS,Sh
4E Reg D LMI B
8E Irr B LMI JLS,Sh

I like the several elephant units with very high morale parent units so that if a waver is necessary due to shooting they should pass and be able to charge.

I don't like that the CinC is all alone, he should be in a 2 El unit, perhaps as a free body able to staff move productively.

I also don't like that the Sub generals are in overall poor morale units. Typically your generals are acting as a mobile reserve and may have to take a waver or two for routers.

I think a little more LI is needed. I really hate the Irr B LMI JLS,Sh unit. Such a unit is too expensive for its benefit and screams out 'kill me and cause wavers' to the enemy.

Frank
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Kelly Wilkinson Camillan

Frank Gilson wrote:
Kelly brings out the Camillan Romans as follows:

CinC 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh
2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh
7 units of 4E Reg C MI HTW,Sh
4E Reg B HI LTS,Sh
4 units of 6E Reg C MI LTS,Sh
3 units of 6E Reg C LI LTS,JLS,Sh
2E Reg C LI LTS,JLS,Sh
2E Reg C LI LTS,JLS,Sh/JLS,Sh
2 herds of flaming pigs
18 units, 3 bodies, 1 command, 14 scouting

I don't really quibble with how Kelly has organized this list...and I like the LI LTS,JLS,Sh through which the legions can use circulating combatants. I just don't think the list is strong enough to get anybody that far.

As an example, the flaming pigs really benefit from having solid mounted (lancers) to send in with them at an infantry target...no such chance here.

Frank


Camillan is the one Roman list on which you can get MI circulating combatants, and that's a fairly big plus. This army holds a lot more frontage than, say, Marian Roman. The problem is it's still quite one-dimensional and slow.

You can throw some LI into rough terrain on your flanks to try and buy time and slow the enemy down. That's fine, if you get some frontage-narrowing terrain picks. You still have to get the MI into combat with something, and that's no easy task.

And Frank's right about the pigs. As it stands, the process goes something like this:
* pigs are unleashed against enemy foot, meaning your foot can't charge said foot this bound (non-impetuous foot can't charge together with mounted, and pigs count as mounted).
* enemy foot receives a disordering interprenetration from the pigs
* at the end of the same bound, the enemy foot re-orders, since this is a cessation-cured cause of disorder.
* next bound your foot can charge, but since the enemy is re-ordered....

This contrasts sharply with, say, Timurids, who can charge SHC together with camel carts so that the SHC hit the target foot while the foot is still disordered from the camel carts.

No, the lack of decent mounted is a huge, huge negative on this list, and is really a deal breaker. I give this list about a 4 out of 10 overall, though there's nothing wrong with how Kelly has bought it. Kelly gets a 4.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Han Chinese - Steven Hollowell

Frank Gilson wrote:
Steve submitted the following Han list. He received 0 points in the event, so I'm not sure what happened.

CinC w/PA on Reg A 4h LCh
Sub similar
2 units of 2E Reg C HC L,CB
4E Reg C LC B
4 units of 4E Reg B(1 A) LHI 2HCT,CB,Sh/2HCT,CB
2 units of 4E Reg D MI LTS,Sh/CB Caltrops
4 units of 2E Reg D LI B
2 units of 5E Irr D LI JLS,Sh/JLS
2 units of 4E Reg B LMI JLS,B,Sh/JLS,B
2E Irr A 2HCT,Sh/JLS,Sh
4E Irr A 2HCT,Sh/JLS,Sh
19 units, 2 bodies, 2 commands, 27 scouting

I think the generals on lone light chariots are a mistake. They can't do anything other than provide some unease here and there...not a good value for points spent. I'd put them in heavy chariot units (although I'd likely have one light chariot unit for swift unease generation and to charge unsupported LI.)

I don't like the HC L,CB...and you can get Irr C LC B without incurring that requirement.

Frank


So here I get to disagree with Frank a bit. With Han, you either have to decide to use the chariots as real combat troops, or use them simply as staff elements for your generals. The latter approach is certainly valid -- chariots are hard to use as combat troops -- in which case you do want the generals as LCh so that they always have the option of evading from a charge. That's how you get them close enough to cause unease in the enemy and inspire eagerness in your own troops without exposing them too much.

I also don't think the HC are terrible. They can skirmish, they're regular, and they are still lance charging into an uncovered flank or exposed disordered unit. And this army could use somebody with a 160p charge reach to help keep enemy lights and skirmishers honest.

The core of Steve's list is fine. You play Han to play the 2HCT,CB guys. Several armies can get these, but the Han get them with the best morale options. These guys are among the best foot troops in the game.

A few things here I don't like. I don't see the point of buying caltrops for the LTS guys. If they end up in a combat where you actually need the caltrops, then you've already made a mistake. And I don't think the Irr A guys are a good idea. They don't hit that much harder than the regular 2HCT guys at first contact (slightly higher factor in the front rank, but one less figure fighting). And they are quite vulnerable after first contact. Shieldess loose order who can roll down as big as Irr As sometimes do is a risky proposition in a sustained combat.

To me Han is one of those unsolved riddles. I put it in the same category as Timurids. On paper, it looks like there's an awesome mix of troops available with few required troops that are problematic. The problem is that the best troops are expensive, sometimes hard to coordinate, and it's tough to come up with the right 1600 points.

I feel like this army should be an 8 in terms of overall potential, but I've yet to see a version that lives up to that potential (including my own attempts to tinker with the list). I give Steve a 6 out of 10 for what he has here.

-Mark Stone
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