Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

First, you are confusing shieldless with armor. 8.92 is about armor, the question was about shieldless.

Second, 7.1 says:

"To count as shieldless for shooting, the element of a
target body that is closest to the shooting element must
count as shieldless."

the exception for skirmish is:

"If a unit is in skirmish formation, and any
elements of it that are able to shoot are
shieldless when they do, then the whole unit
counts shieldless when shot."

Third ranks of foot are not able to shoot in skirmish, the closest element is shielded, so shielded in the question.

Do I still need to run down a bunch of theoretical armor questions??

[joncleaves]

[Frank Gilson]

Ok...thanks...was focusing too narrowly on one rule.

So...the column of LHI/LHI/LMI/LMI B,Sh in skirmish is fired on as LMI but the shieldless factor of LHI.

The LHI/LHI/LMI/LMI JLS,Sh/JLS,Sh/B,Sh/B,Sh column in skirmish is fired on as LMI but shielded.

Got it...

[Bill Chriss]

I see now John. Actually, I think I was posting my message when yours about third ranks came on board, so we crossed in the mail, or else I wouldn't have posted about the psiloi. Thanks for clarifying this in any event. If I knew more about shooting (that barbarian pants-wearing form of fighting) I would probably not only know all this but be a much better Warrior player as well!

[Bill Chriss]

Actually, I meant: "I see now, Jon..."

[joncleaves]

curse the pants-wearers!

[Ewan McNay]

I don't see that anyone - or more usefully Jon - has yet confirmed/denied Scott's new assumption/reading: that all elements of a body have to be able to shoot, and that therefore a wide unit is limited by ability to shoot **all along the frontage**. Obviously difficult - often impossible - for JLS-armed bodies, who are thus going to either have to be in tiny units or not using skirmish.

Is this correct?

[Frank Gilson]

A bit buried...but Jon did respond:
"i) If a body is wide enough, and the opponent is careful, at least one element of the body will not be able to shoot, and so that unit cannot enter or retain skirmish. ]]

I think that might be theoretically possible. "

The last statement is Jon's...and at no point did he say that the clearly stated rule was in error and should not apply.

Wide bodies of irregular foot armed with JLS and no other missile weapon should generally find themselves unable to skirmish...if their opponent takes any care to prevent it.

Frank

[joncleaves]

Hey, I am tryin' here...lol

Its a lot easier when the questions are rules questions and not theoreticals of technique.

I will answer every one of the former that I can find. The latter as I have time, if not too draconian or numerous.

It is always better to ask the rules question, citing the case(s), than to ask a theoretical, which may or may not cover every aspect of the answer or even the aspect that you were looking to have answered at all..

[Frank Gilson]

Ewan's question boils down to this:
A) Is in fact the rule 6.45, on page 60, correct in full in stating:
"Note that 'in shooting range' in this rule means 'in shooting range of all of the body's elements.'"?

Thus, then, the following:
B) An irregular LMI JLS,Sh unit is 6 elements wide, 2 elements deep. The enemy has a unit only 1 element wide only at one very end of this irr LMI JLS,Sh unit. So, as most of the elements of the Irr LMI JLS,Sh unit are not in and cannot be in range of shooting anything, even though 2 or 4 such elements can shoot, the body CANNOT enter skirmish?

Frank

[joncleaves]

Exactly my issue. The answer is "it depends".

That is not a rules question, it is a question about a theoretical in-game situation and not all facts are known.

If we call the LMI JLS guy the "friendly body", I'd have to know:

- any other enemy about?
- who has initiative?

If for example I simply answered "no", assuming that there were no other enemy anywhere nearby and the LMI was approaching second and someone in a game after I answer this way is in the same situation but approaching first, then I may very well have given that player some very bad info. This is actually not too bad, only two unknowns I can think of in the example that matter. Other such theoreticals have so many pertinent unknowns that it really is often not worth "answering" such.

If the LMI in this example as I understand it is approaching second (no enemy can get into his shooting range) and there is no other enemy in proximity, then no, it does not appear to me from this example that the LMI may enter skirmish formation.

Jon

[Frank Gilson]

Then all elements must be in or could be in (if moving first) does in fact apply, as the rules state, answering Ewan's question.

NOT as we've generally played it, which is wrong, that only one element of a body need satisfy 'in range' actual or possible.

Frank

[OGS-Vintage]

You have to be able to shoot to be able to skirmish (harsh on JLS, but hey, don't the celts/gauls get enough?)

Only one element needs to be able to shoot AT the target.

Don't forget common sense - be gentlemen about every situation.

Skirmishers are always shooting hence lose shield etc and are counted as the most vulnerable part of the unit (irregardless of how many sub elements of heavier armour you try to wrinkle in).

Don't forget - make sure if your opponent has any Irreg A elements in for morale purposes (waver tests) Irreg MUST charge! Thats been overlooked by many a new player (I count eager!!! <but always forget to charge>)


May you always throw up against your opponent, and may be always roll down in the fight!

[Frank Gilson]

"You have to be able to shoot to be able to skirmish (harsh on JLS, but hey, don't the celts/gauls get enough?)

Only one element needs to be able to shoot AT the target."

Nope...read Jon's posts...

[OGS-Vintage]

Bang go the skirmishers