Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[blackhawk1]

So looking at this list if I read this right my HC gets norman cav rule but if I upgrade them to HK I lose norman rule?

[blackhawk1]

This is the Anglo-Norman list the subject is very small

[scott holder]

Correct.

[blackhawk1]

ok Than looking at other lists it seems that there are some that get Norman knights that get the Norman rule. I guess do not understand why than that this list loses the rule at when they become Knights. Is it game balance?

[Mark Stone]

[blackhawk1]

No problem I was I guess asking for Justification but also I have my degree in in History some in world but much of it is in american. Part of me is wanting to know more of the changes historically on Cav vs Knights and what the rule represents. I am new here and very new to the game, I am hoping with understanding these rules I can figure out what list will best fit my play style. Hopefully the history of the army's might makes some sense as well to help me with the rules. I know it sound kind of strange but in my brain it makes sense.

[Mark Stone]

I'll offer a bit of speculation, since my opinion doesn't count as anything official. And I know a fair amount about the history of the time.

The people we call Normans (or, as I like to think of them, Vikings on horses) represent three or four distinct groups:
* Native Normans from the Normandy peninsula and surrounding areas;
* Norman Conquest, representing post-Hasting Normans in England;
* Mediterranean Normans, primarily representing the Norman conquest of Sicily
* Crusader Normans, an off-shoot of Mediterranean Normans and representing either actual crusaders or mercenaries operating in and around Byzantium.

Some questions to consider:
* How long did the Normans in any of these regions retain enough of a core identity to have a distinct cavalry practice different from the surrounding areas?
* How long did the Normans retain the arms and equipment we associate with Native Normans, versus adopting arms and equipment more common to the area in which they operated?
* When arms and equipment changed, was it strictly an adaptation to local conditions (greater armor needed in the face of more prevalent bowfire in the Mediterranean, for example), or did it represent a "watering down" of Norman cavalry mixing with local cavalry?

The list rules are based primarily on a distinct Norman cavalry practice, and on key aspects of that practice not yet being adopted by contemporaries. The classification as "knight" is partly based on practice, but partly based on arms and equipment. In each of the four geographic regions in which the Normans operated, changes in practices did not happen at the same time in the same way in all four regions, and similarly changes in arms/equipment did not happen at the same time in the same way in all four regions.

Normans on the continent were probably influenced by emerging cavalry practices in Spain and Germany. Sicily was probably similarly influenced by Germany. By contrast, in England the Normans were the only true practioners of cavalry tactics. The Crusader Normans were influenced by facing foes that were primarily horse archers. Nowhere else did they face this challenge.

The bottom line is Norman cavalry practices as a distinct thing faded into the background of chivalric cavalry practices at different times in different regions, and the up-armoring of cavalry followed a somewhat different evolution which also varied by region. The result is a complicated matrix that will yield different answers for who gets Norman cavalry rules at different times, and who gets classified as HK versus HC at different times.

Certainly the answers are a judgment call based on an uncertain and incomplete historical record. I wouldn't presume to know the correct way to make that call, and I appreciate the efforts of Four Horsemen to do their best to get it right.

[ghauser90]

Well said Mark.

[blackhawk1]

First I would like to say thanks Mark that was very well laid out. Gives me more of a idea what I should be looking up now in my books. I have more ancient Japanese Knowledge than European so I need to look up the age of chivalry.

Thanks you have been a great help.

[blackhawk1]

I was getting a strange error message

[scott holder]

Thanks Mark.