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A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
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1200 Points... Better or the BEST!
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lilroblis
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: 1200 - was 1300 points

When I started 7th we played 1300 points as standard, for me all in 15 mm- on large tables minis, I know I hated them the table size changes army selection as much as the point size - on an 8X5 table - I would only play cavalry armies - or elephant armies - (with cav) as I have been there done that - it becomes a horse archer theme - at least if you want to be competitive - warrior is always affected (some armies neutralize by counterpunching) by the space available and concentration of force - in 1200 points the armies I love to play (foot heavy) cannot force battle anywhere - so you are forced to lager up - please just tell me if you are changing and I'll start painting Mongols
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject:

We're not actually changing...debate is enjoyable, of course, and may help us with various sorts of fun events in the future.

We try to encourage a range of armies by matching point totals to table sizes and formats with pre-set terrain so that no one army type will always have either an advantage, or disadvantage, purely on the basis of space.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject:

you could also try a 1400 point tournament with 3 hour time limit.

Nothing says we have to go 1200, 1600, 2000

Todd

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Matt Kollmer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject:

I honestly like the 1200pts. I think the quicker play and optimized list creation is interesting. I do think that an 8x5 table for 1200 is a bonus overall, but the chance that Mongols show and simply outflank you could ruin it. Deploying only in the center is an interesting tweek that probably should be playtested although I could see that playing into the hands of an army of greater mobility especially against a Roman or Hoplite type army thatís relatively stangnant.
I do like 1600 pts as well, but that can lead to just buying more lights and the like to stall off until you can find the time to commit to combat and sometimes just leads to a long day. Iíve found myself stalling or holding out a turn or two in fear that Commiting too early could spell doom and that can lend itself to a less than stellar game. In the past Iíve felt that 1600 pt games should be played at 3hrs.... but to rush it isnít always going to help, sometimes the game just needs to be played out fully.
I played Zulu in 1200 and I liked how it ran, even tho Zulu arenít the cheapest, you are uniform and donít have glaring weaknesses except for the lancers which is unavoidable.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject:

Matt Kollmer wrote:
I honestly like the 1200pts. I think the quicker play and optimized list creation is interesting. I do think that an 8x5 table for 1200 is a bonus overall, but the chance that Mongols show and simply outflank you could ruin it. Deploying only in the center is an interesting tweek that probably should be playtested although I could see that playing into the hands of an army of greater mobility especially against a Roman or Hoplite type army thatís relatively stangnant.
I do like 1600 pts as well, but that can lead to just buying more lights and the like to stall off until you can find the time to commit to combat and sometimes just leads to a long day. Iíve found myself stalling or holding out a turn or two in fear that Commiting too early could spell doom and that can lend itself to a less than stellar game. In the past Iíve felt that 1600 pt games should be played at 3hrs.... but to rush it isnít always going to help, sometimes the game just needs to be played out fully.
I played Zulu in 1200 and I liked how it ran, even tho Zulu arenít the cheapest, you are uniform and donít have glaring weaknesses except for the lancers which is unavoidable.


Matt has some quality words here...just what I like to see when we bring up these topics.

I too like 1200 point games, but also 1600 and 2000 (teams).

I like themes, Opens, Dogs of War and whatever else we come up with.

I feel I have to think differently when confronted with all these options.

Now I just hope for more cheap airfares between Hamburg and New York...so I can keep struggling against you gentlemen in our epic confrontations.
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srawls
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
you could also try a 1400 point tournament with 3 hour time limit.

Nothing says we have to go 1200, 1600, 2000

Todd


Has anyone actually played at 1400 points?

Steve
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject:

Nope - but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be an interesting idea. it would force a person to make different decisions in a list. If you have your standard 1600 point list - what would you cut to make it 1400? Would you drop more lights or main body units? There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box.

You could be crazy and go 1350 or 1450..... We have gone with Dogs of War tournaments and adjusted points in Themes.... - I just played Later Crusader at 1850......

Todd

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:50 am    Post subject:

scott holder wrote:

What's the rationale for not deploying in the flank sectors?

This is great brainstorming on format!

scott


Frankly I think it's more realistic. We are all, from time to time, guilty of using the table edge as a terrain feature to anchor against. This would greatly reduce that tendency, and would somewhat reduce flank march gimmickry since flank marches would now arrive farther from the main action.

I recognize the risk that this approach would favor armies with an abundance of light troops, light cav in particular. And thus in the old terrain feature picking system I never would have seriously proposed this.

But we're now in the world of preset terrain, and we could have terrain that mitigated the power of light cavalry -- and added some further realism. We do not play out the important operational part of battles, in which the actual field of battle is settled. But less mobile armies always worked to find anchoring terrain features, and many times did so successfully (think Henry V at Agincourt). We can simulate this by making sure many tables -- perhaps most tables -- have suitable terrain features to anchor between in the central sector of the table.

I think we'd get some fascinating tactics out of this combination of deployment and terrain placement. I think it's at least worth play testing in a tournament or two.
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srawls
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject:

I'll see if I can get some of the retired guys down here to play some games in different point values, as they have more play time available.

Steve
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:33 am    Post subject:

Like who retired old guys????
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jamiepwhite
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Retired old guys report

The Oracle has spoken so the happy retired old guys went to Steve's Gym while the Oracle sat at a desk somewhere and typed some sort of internet gibberish. Derek and I, after moving some furniture around with a truck for his daughter, made two lists for 1200 points on a 8 x 5 table. Derek randomly chose Later Teutonic as the army to pull off the shelf and away we went. Trying to emulate Scott's theme of not too cluttered, we just left some woods on one flank, and open center, and then some brushes on the other flank. Nothing happened in the woods except for some LI JLS staring at each other. The brush was a more interesting fight as LMI crossbow shot it out with LMI bow troops. I was winning due to having more stuff but I tried to win quickly in the center instead. Sadly, Derek picked off one of the almughavar units who promptly rolled a one when charged. Oh well. On the other side, HK charged his SHK and SHK/HC units, but I managed to roll down and not disorder any of his mixed units.

Overall I liked the 1200 point army on an 8 x 5 table. Both us made lists that had adequate light troops for the table and just skimped in other areas.
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Ed Kollmer
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject:

Oh.....those .......old retired guys.......
I see said the blind man to the deaf man........
EK
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