Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

As a newbie to WARRIOR, I'm confused about the visibility of elephants on the battlefield. In one example, the LOS of an elephant unit is blocked by an intervening unit but in another place, the rules state that elephants can "see and be seen over intervening troops". Is there a difference in being "seen" and being visible for shooting purposes?

[Todd Kaeser]

There is a difference between being seen and being visible. You can always see elephants over other troops for purposes of unease and testing for routing. They can also see over other troops and test for routers.

The elephants cannot be shot at if screened unless a 1 element gap allows for it and shooting priorities are met.

Todd

[Frank Gilson]

Hold on their, Todd...elephants can be shot at...more or less period. The 1 element gap is only for your own troops for overhead shooting.

Thus, if your opponent has their elephants jammed up against the back of their pike, and said enemy pike where somehow 1mm in front of your shooters...you probably have to shoot at those elephants (and in fact can).

Also, no real distinction between 'seen' and 'visible'...if something is visible, it can be seen, if it is not visible, it cannot be seen. The distinction is between 'known' and 'visible'.

JHill will have to directly reference his example of confusion.

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

My confusion comes from the bottom of page 76, where example 8-4 seems to show an elephant unit (unit Y) that can't be shot at because friendly unit (x) is blocking it. In the example, the elephant can be seen and even has a 1 element gap but is not visible to part of unit A (A1) can't draw a line from one of his corners to the elephants.

Sorry but you will need your rule book to make sense out of what I just wrote.

This does seem to contradict 13.15, which states "Elephants are a visible target over intervening troops at the same elevation level."

JH

[Frank Gilson]

Unfortunately Example 8-4 is incorrect...something else to fix!

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

Frank,
This clears up most of my problem but then there was this link from Scott H about a previous post of mine regarding shooting bombards over friends at elephants.

Missile armed shooters may NOT shoot over *friends* at the same elevation.

Elephants, due to visibility rules (see 13.15 and others), are legal targets
to missile armed troops over intervening *enemy* bodies. Of course, the elephants, as a target, must reflect the priorities listed in 8.3. Also, as stated in 8.3, elephants in HTH, even if every base is in contact, are eligible targets.

So, in the limited example of this, the El in the example are a legal target. This is from a back and forth with Jon back in 2005 that Fred found after Cold Wars 2011 when this issue came up and I ruled DIFFERENTLY (of course).

Question: Can elephants be shoot with bombards over intervening "enemy" troops if on the same elevation, assuming they qualify as the shooting priority? What if they had been catapults instead?

This came up in a game on Saturday, when I screen my elephants from Vietnamese crossbowmen using my pike units.

[jamiepwhite]

Paragraph 8.7 discusses overhead shooting but bombards aren't permitted to shoot overhead anyway. So following the normal shooting priority list (chargers, shooters, general, elephant, artillery, then nearest) the bombards would fire. Enemy pike standing before an elephant would not be the priority target, the bombards would shoot the elephant unit first. Enemy LI B, depending on range to the bombard, would screen the elephant if in range to shoot the bombards.

Artillery on a hill or other elevation would be trickier, it would be easier at one of the Steve's Gym games to get out some models and show you the various outcomes. Bombards or catapults would shoot differently, missile armed elephants, artillery armed elephants, screening friendly troops, etc. can all affect the priority.

[jhill4913@comcast.net]

Jamie,
I seems to me that WARRIOR makes a distinction between shooting overhead and shooting over intervening troops. Bombards can't shoot overhead but I see no restrictions for the shooting over intervening enemy troops, hence my pike shouldn't have been able to screen my elephants.

Is that what you are saying?
Jimmy

[Frank Gilson]

If the enemy have Bombards and you have pike with elephants behind them, then the bombards shoot at the elephants which are the higher priority (visible, target priority)...right over the pike, just as archers would.

8.7 Shooting by rear ranks or over another body - is interpreted to apply to own troops, generally speaking.

So, you cannot shoot your Bombards over your spearmen into the enemy elephants, even if the elephants are visible to the Bombards.

However, you CAN shoot your Bombards over your enemy's pikemen into their elephants (and are required to do so by target priority).

The Stone-Thrower/Bolt-Shooters part of being on a hill applies largely to shooting over your own troops (although you can use that paragraph to fire over enemy troops, but must respect target priority).

Frank

[lilroblis]

The last time we had this debate - the ruling was you can see them and shoot at them if there is a 40 poace gap between the enemy bodies - elephants are visible but can only be shot at with a gap or seperation between units -

[Frank Gilson]

[Frank Gilson]

Also, the drawing lines from corners to somewhere on the target body is for VISIBILITY not for OPEN SPACE to shoot through.

[Ed Kollmer]

I have Romans and use Bolt shooters.
I hate to say it but this thread has me VERY confused. I know that as you all know that I am EASILY confused. I will continue to reread it and GROKE it.
Ed the confused

[Frank Gilson]

[Ed Kollmer]

OK
I have 3 carts with Bolt Shooters on a rise.
They can shoot over their own bodies which are closer to them than the enemy? True or False

They can shoot at enemy elephants over enemy bodies. true or false

Ed the confused.