Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Mallard]

I was pursuing a routing unit last night towards my table edge not his table
edge. On checking the rules it appears it is supposed to turn round somehow
and go towards its own edge.

Is this so even if i am still in contact with it?

Maybe i am missing something here but it seems a bit vague.

I presume on the second rout it must attempt a 45 degree wheel in either
direction and again in subsequent bounds until it is going towards its own
edge. The mechanics of this maneuever could be explained as a clarification
maybe or you could maybe point me to the proper place in the rules.

Because of the number of other units nearby we wrongly ruled it routed away
from the pursuers for a second round - this took it off the board at my table
edge.

thanks
mark mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 10/23/2002 03:17:04 Central Daylight Time,
markmallard77@... writes:

> On checking the rules it appears it is supposed to turn round somehow
> and go towards its own edge.
>
> Is this so even if i am still in contact with it?
>

Yes.

> Maybe i am missing something here but it seems a bit vague.
>
> I presume on the second rout it must attempt a 45 degree wheel in either
> direction and again in subsequent bounds until it is going towards its own
> edge.

Yes.

Unless its a flank marcher and then it can head to the arrival edge.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 1/2/2004 10:42:31 Central Standard Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:
I'm just confused, probably by my own reading skills, as to the 9.22
rule. It reads as though the second rank counts if pursuing if they
are L armed, but they are using OC factors.
That is correct.
Wouldn't I therefore,
naturally assume that non-lance armed mounted wouldn't count the
second rank even if charging out of skirmish?
Non-lance armed mounted never count 2d rank in hth without a list rule.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This has already probably been long solved, but I was playing a game
the other day and noticed on page 68 that L armed mounted use "other
cav" when pursuing.

under 9.22
(LANCE) A second rank of cavalry or knights armed with L fights as
half effect if charging, counter-charging or pursuing, and the front
rank is also cavarly or knight armed with lance. Note that when
pursuing, the count at half effect, but use "other cavalry" factors
not L factors.

under 9.3

(L) Lances wielded monted count only if the figure charged or counter-
charged this bound. Otherwise (e.g. pursuit), figures armed with L
use "other cavalry" factors.

I'm just confused, probably by my own reading skills, as to the 9.22
rule. It reads as though the second rank counts if pursuing if they
are L armed, but they are using OC factors. Wouldn't I therefore,
naturally assume that non-lance armed mounted wouldn't count the
second rank even if charging out of skirmish?

Wanax

We had an interesting situation arise recently and we are wondering if we
interpreted the rules correctly.

A unit of Irr LI was sitting 40 paces from a unit of enemy LMI (which was
located to the LI’s front at the middle line of the table). During the
March phase units started coming on the board from a flank march and another
unit of enemy LMI ended it’s move 240 paces directly to the rear of the LI.
BTW the LI were located at about 200 paces from the table edge and there was
another enemy LMI unit located adjacent to the unit at the LI’s front.

How can the LI move?

Approach moves say that you cannot move further away from the closest enemy
defined at the beginning of the move and both Counters and Retirement moves
require that you move no closer to an enemy who is within 240 paces. The LI
couldn’t charge the LMI (not that they would have wanted to)….

In that case are they stuck?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know I know, but we really did try to find it and couldn't.

If a unit has enough CPF, but is not tired, and an impetuous charge
is declared by the unit would make the unit tired. Is it tired on
contact or after combat? No support shooting issue here.

I had a unit of LC with 4 CPF, it declared an impetuous charge on
another LC unit. My contention was that a unit is either tired
before the charge or after combat, not in between. I have been known
to be wrong, so Jon please advise.

Wanax

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/7/2004 12:51:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> If a unit has enough CPF, but is not tired>>
[
[
You mean FP, I assume.

<<, and an impetuous charge
> is declared by the unit would make the unit tired. Is it
> tired on
> contact or after combat? No support shooting issue here.>>
[
[
On contact.

[Mark Mallard]

Hi,

My opponent has been trying out the new SASSANID list.

He gave his close order MI bowmen Pavices. On looking through the rules it
did not look clear whether the Pavice counted as shields if they shot.

It seemed illogical that the pavice costs the same as a shield but does
more. Can you clarify please.

Mark Mallard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/16/2004 9:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, markmallard77
writes:

> Hi,
>
> My opponent has been trying out the new SASSANID list.
>
> He gave his close order MI bowmen Pavices. On looking through the rules it
> did not look clear whether the Pavice counted as shields if they shot. >>

Pavises do nothing for figures armed with B when they shoot. It only protects
them from shooting when they do not shoot.

Jon

[Chris Damour]

Jon,
SAY WHAT!!!

--
Christopher Damour

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 JonCleaves@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/16/2004 9:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, markmallard77
writes:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > My opponent has been trying out the new SASSANID list.
> >
> > He gave his close order MI bowmen Pavices. On looking through the rules it
> > did not look clear whether the Pavice counted as shields if they shot. >>
>
> Pavises do nothing for figures armed with B when they shoot. It only protects
them from shooting when they do not shoot.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Tim Grimmett]

Indead, the sound you just heard is Eric Turner having a stroke at the thought
of his shieldless Koreans.

damourc <damourc@...> wrote:Jon,
SAY WHAT!!!

--
Christopher Damour

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 JonCleaves@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/16/2004 9:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, markmallard77
writes:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > My opponent has been trying out the new SASSANID list.
> >
> > He gave his close order MI bowmen Pavices. On looking through the rules it
> > did not look clear whether the Pavice counted as shields if they shot. >>
>
> Pavises do nothing for figures armed with B when they shoot. It only protects
them from shooting when they do not shoot.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can not understand how a warrior with a spear can fight in a second rank
behind a man with a heavy sword or axe, without being hurt by the swinging axe!!
Axeman fight individually, and spearman in group. So I say that they can not.
Emilio Moskowich
Spain


One question becomes many!

So 1st question again:
If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

2nd question...
My reading of the rules indicates the LTS in the first question would fight
at 1/2 figs from the second rank. Correct?

3rd question...
Is the answer to question 1 the same if the second rank is armed with P?

4th question...
My reading of the rules indicates the P (in question 3) would fight at full
figs from the second rank. Correct?

5th question...LIST QUESTION - Feudal Warrior, Holy Roman Imperial List #25,
pg 45.
Under LATE. Replace any reg LTS-armed foot with P.
Is it then acceptable for the unit in question 1 to swap the LTS in the
second rank with P?

Thanks!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Becker [mailto:JonBecker@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:25 AM
To: WarriorRules
Subject: [WarriorRules] Rules Question



Hello!

If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

Thanks!





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Quite easily actually if both fighters know the basics. I've been doing Medieval
combat for over 45 years. The issue is that you are visualizing the axeman using
his weapon as if he was chopping wood. Most people do that huge baseball bat
type swing because they don't understand body mechanics. Yes it is powerful, but
it's also very slow & leaves you defenseless. In actuallity you keep the axe in
front of you so that you can sweep block, thrust with the beard & use hip
rotations & hip-rocks to supply the power for your swings. This allows your axe
to rise vertically or side to side but never behind the front of your body yet
still give you massive power for blows & still keep it in front of you for a
block. Another trick it to fulcrum the handle in & to quickly tighten the arc,
much like a rock on the string speeds up & hits harder when your spinning it
around then shorten the string.

The weight of the head also contributes to the force of the blow. Case in
point. Every year for the past 32 years I've hosted a feast on (or really near)
November 11th for the men I served with. I like to make it a more traditional
Viking Age type feast, with Wild Boar, Elk, etc. That's a lot of people & a lot
of food & some time it's difficult to get the third boar haunch into the roaster
with out shortening it somehow. Boars legs are really thick & heavy boned. Being
silly the first time, I decided to cover a stump with foil, place the haunch on
it & use my two handed Danish axe on it. I started with about a 35 degree arc
swing, thinking that I could open up to the bone so I would have a good aim to
strike the bone square. Damn if I didn't go thru the entire haunch & almost 2
inches into the stump using the above mentioned techniques. I almost felt the
blow was light compared to how I usually hit. From then on it's always been a
race amongst my friends to be the one who gets to axe the haunch each year.

Admittedly well padded armour makes a difference than bare flesh, but a boar
bone is really durable stuff & probably equivelent to armour. I would say that
the techniques above would enable axe & spearmen to fight in ranks.

manga takk,
Sven

----- Original Message -----
From: EMILIO MOSKOWICH
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/24/2004 10:38:46 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [WarriorRules] Rules Question


I can not understand how a warrior with a spear can fight in a second rank
behind a man with a heavy sword or axe, without being hurt by the swinging axe!!
Axeman fight individually, and spearman in group. So I say that they can not.
Emilio Moskowich
Spain


One question becomes many!

So 1st question again:
If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

2nd question...
My reading of the rules indicates the LTS in the first question would fight
at 1/2 figs from the second rank. Correct?

3rd question...
Is the answer to question 1 the same if the second rank is armed with P?

4th question...
My reading of the rules indicates the P (in question 3) would fight at full
figs from the second rank. Correct?

5th question...LIST QUESTION - Feudal Warrior, Holy Roman Imperial List #25,
pg 45.
Under LATE. Replace any reg LTS-armed foot with P.
Is it then acceptable for the unit in question 1 to swap the LTS in the
second rank with P?

Thanks!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Becker [mailto:JonBecker@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:25 AM
To: WarriorRules
Subject: [WarriorRules] Rules Question



Hello!

If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

Thanks!





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That sounds very interesting, Sven. May you send me any diagrams that explain
those blows?
Emilio
P.D I have a two handed sword manual derived from italian and german XV century
originals, and several blows are from behind the head, or from the side of the
body.





Quite easily actually if both fighters know the basics. I've been doing Medieval
combat for over 45 years. The issue is that you are visualizing the axeman using
his weapon as if he was chopping wood. Most people do that huge baseball bat
type swing because they don't understand body mechanics. Yes it is powerful, but
it's also very slow & leaves you defenseless. In actuallity you keep the axe in
front of you so that you can sweep block, thrust with the beard & use hip
rotations & hip-rocks to supply the power for your swings. This allows your axe
to rise vertically or side to side but never behind the front of your body yet
still give you massive power for blows & still keep it in front of you for a
block. Another trick it to fulcrum the handle in & to quickly tighten the arc,
much like a rock on the string speeds up & hits harder when your spinning it
around then shorten the string.

The weight of the head also contributes to the force of the blow. Case in
point. Every year for the past 32 years I've hosted a feast on (or really near)
November 11th for the men I served with. I like to make it a more traditional
Viking Age type feast, with Wild Boar, Elk, etc. That's a lot of people & a lot
of food & some time it's difficult to get the third boar haunch into the roaster
with out shortening it somehow. Boars legs are really thick & heavy boned. Being
silly the first time, I decided to cover a stump with foil, place the haunch on
it & use my two handed Danish axe on it. I started with about a 35 degree arc
swing, thinking that I could open up to the bone so I would have a good aim to
strike the bone square. Damn if I didn't go thru the entire haunch & almost 2
inches into the stump using the above mentioned techniques. I almost felt the
blow was light compared to how I usually hit. From then on it's always been a
race amongst my fr!
iends to be the one who gets to axe the haunch each year.

Admittedly well padded armour makes a difference than bare flesh, but a boar
bone is really durable stuff & probably equivelent to armour. I would say that
the techniques above would enable axe & spearmen to fight in ranks.

manga takk,
Sven

----- Original Message -----
From: EMILIO MOSKOWICH
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/24/2004 10:38:46 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [WarriorRules] Rules Question


I can not understand how a warrior with a spear can fight in a second rank
behind a man with a heavy sword or axe, without being hurt by the swinging axe!!
Axeman fight individually, and spearman in group. So I say that they can not.
Emilio Moskowich
Spain


One question becomes many!

So 1st question again:
If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

2nd question...
My reading of the rules indicates the LTS in the first question would fight
at 1/2 figs from the second rank. Correct?

3rd question...
Is the answer to question 1 the same if the second rank is armed with P?

4th question...
My reading of the rules indicates the P (in question 3) would fight at full
figs from the second rank. Correct?

5th question...LIST QUESTION - Feudal Warrior, Holy Roman Imperial List #25,
pg 45.
Under LATE. Replace any reg LTS-armed foot with P.
Is it then acceptable for the unit in question 1 to swap the LTS in the
second rank with P?

Thanks!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Becker [mailto:JonBecker@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:25 AM
To: WarriorRules
Subject: [WarriorRules] Rules Question



Hello!

If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

Thanks!





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I can't draw worth a damn, but I'll sure give it a try. We do know for a fact
that Axe & spear worked together from period descriptions. My friends jokingly
call my style the "Weasel Dance" since I bob & weave a lot. If you look at old
movies of Cassius Clay boxing you'll see an example of what I'm talking about.
He powers his blows from the legs & hips. after all the glut's are the biggest &
strongest muscle group in the body from what I've been told.


----- Original Message -----
From: EMILIO MOSKOWICH
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/24/2004 11:31:21 AM
Subject: Re: Re: RE: [WarriorRules] Rules Question


That sounds very interesting, Sven. May you send me any diagrams that explain
those blows?
Emilio
P.D I have a two handed sword manual derived from italian and german XV century
originals, and several blows are from behind the head, or from the side of the
body.





Quite easily actually if both fighters know the basics. I've been doing Medieval
combat for over 45 years. The issue is that you are visualizing the axeman using
his weapon as if he was chopping wood. Most people do that huge baseball bat
type swing because they don't understand body mechanics. Yes it is powerful, but
it's also very slow & leaves you defenseless. In actuallity you keep the axe in
front of you so that you can sweep block, thrust with the beard & use hip
rotations & hip-rocks to supply the power for your swings. This allows your axe
to rise vertically or side to side but never behind the front of your body yet
still give you massive power for blows & still keep it in front of you for a
block. Another trick it to fulcrum the handle in & to quickly tighten the arc,
much like a rock on the string speeds up & hits harder when your spinning it
around then shorten the string.

The weight of the head also contributes to the force of the blow. Case in
point. Every year for the past 32 years I've hosted a feast on (or really near)
November 11th for the men I served with. I like to make it a more traditional
Viking Age type feast, with Wild Boar, Elk, etc. That's a lot of people & a lot
of food & some time it's difficult to get the third boar haunch into the roaster
with out shortening it somehow. Boars legs are really thick & heavy boned. Being
silly the first time, I decided to cover a stump with foil, place the haunch on
it & use my two handed Danish axe on it. I started with about a 35 degree arc
swing, thinking that I could open up to the bone so I would have a good aim to
strike the bone square. Damn if I didn't go thru the entire haunch & almost 2
inches into the stump using the above mentioned techniques. I almost felt the
blow was light compared to how I usually hit. From then on it's always been a
race amongst my fr!
iends to be the one who gets to axe the haunch each year.

Admittedly well padded armour makes a difference than bare flesh, but a boar
bone is really durable stuff & probably equivelent to armour. I would say that
the techniques above would enable axe & spearmen to fight in ranks.

manga takk,
Sven

----- Original Message -----
From: EMILIO MOSKOWICH
To: warriorrules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/24/2004 10:38:46 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [WarriorRules] Rules Question


I can not understand how a warrior with a spear can fight in a second rank
behind a man with a heavy sword or axe, without being hurt by the swinging axe!!
Axeman fight individually, and spearman in group. So I say that they can not.
Emilio Moskowich
Spain


One question becomes many!

So 1st question again:
If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

2nd question...
My reading of the rules indicates the LTS in the first question would fight
at 1/2 figs from the second rank. Correct?

3rd question...
Is the answer to question 1 the same if the second rank is armed with P?

4th question...
My reading of the rules indicates the P (in question 3) would fight at full
figs from the second rank. Correct?

5th question...LIST QUESTION - Feudal Warrior, Holy Roman Imperial List #25,
pg 45.
Under LATE. Replace any reg LTS-armed foot with P.
Is it then acceptable for the unit in question 1 to swap the LTS in the
second rank with P?

Thanks!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Becker [mailto:JonBecker@...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:25 AM
To: WarriorRules
Subject: [WarriorRules] Rules Question



Hello!

If a unit is armed as follows:

Front Rank entirely 2hcw
Second Rank entirely LTS

And is steady and non-impetuous.
And is receiving a charge.

Do the hand-to-hand tactical factors following apply?

+1 steady P/LTS receiving an impetuous mounted charge
-2 facing steady, non-impetuous P or LTS (exc. 9.42)

Thanks!





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