Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I'm fiddling around with the Biblical Warrior lists. Since nearly all of them
have chariots, this leads to a question about how to use them in Warrior.

They are obviously different then cavalry, but having not ever run a chariot
army, I'm sure I don't appreciate the differences.

Any experienced chariot commanders have any suggestion on organization and
tactics -- particularly of LCh?

John Meunier


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

They are obviously different then cavalry, but having not ever run a
chariot
army, I'm sure I don't appreciate the differences.

Any experienced chariot commanders have any suggestion on organization
and
tactics -- particularly of LCh?

>The meat eating tourney gods will tell you to find a list that has
lotsa lotsa 4 horse light chariots. They do everything a puny 2 horse
LCh does but....has more horses. Great for blowing away other light
screens since they don't hafta start behind flanks, etc.

>Another school is to pick something from late in the period so that you
have 4 horse HCh loaded with quadruple-armed crew. They then slam into
anything (within the period, all these comments are assuming you're
talking strictly within period games).

>My school is to purchase LMI detachments armed with JLS and keep them
as second ranks behind the HCh. Sure, you lose the impetuousness but
they have greater staying power and if you get pushed back, the chariots
drop back behind the attached LMI.

>You can avoid chariots altogether and pick a list from the era (Early
Hebrews come to mind as do the later Sumerian/Akkadian lists) that can
actually hold it's own merely with foot. You can even move outside the
period a little bit.

>Then there's the old Midianite mirage options. I have em in 15mm,
still can't run them worth a damn. Man they shoot well and of course
get shot at equally well but in the early 90s, they were all the rage.

Scott
Bronze Age Ho

[Ewan McNay]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 scribblerjohn@... wrote:
> They are obviously different then cavalry, but having not ever run a chariot
> army, I'm sure I don't appreciate the differences.

Very different. In particular, while they can be quite tough to beat
frontally - especially if armed with LTS - they re extremely vulnerable if
they fail to win the first round of combat, as their horses stop fighting!

Cheap for the CPF; slightly different in manouvre, but not overly so.

> Any experienced chariot commanders have any suggestion on organization and
> tactics -- particularly of LCh?

4hLCh are wonderful - they can charge anything (and have a good chance of
winning; ideal target is loose foot, which must then waver) and break off
if they lose, because they can then evade the following turn if charged!
Not only that, they can skirmish. I generaly run them in units of 3, but
occasionally in 4s if there were a lot available. Really excellent
troops. Can even be run in twos if there are good follow-up troops to
support them if they hit and win.

2hLCh have never taken my fancy - too vulnerable to LC.

HCh (almost all 4h, I think? Maybe some 3h oddities in the Biblical era)
don't have the evade option, and - as noted above - require care to avoid
being caught by something they can't beat. However, chariots - all - *do*
have a unique ability to break through more than other troops, which can
sometimes be useful.

Personally, I'd much rather have an elephant for the points. But Robert
Turnbull or Derek Downs can give you good advice on HCh.

Ewan

[Ewan McNay]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Holder, Scott <FHWA> wrote:
> >The meat eating tourney gods will tell you to find a list that has
> lotsa lotsa 4 horse light chariots. They do everything a puny 2 horse
> LCh does but....has more horses. Great for blowing away other light
> screens since they don't hafta start behind flanks, etc.

'meat eating tourney god'? Hmm . But Scott is right on his
recommendation .

> >My school is to purchase LMI detachments armed with JLS and keep them
> as second ranks behind the HCh. Sure, you lose the impetuousness but
> they have greater staying power and if you get pushed back, the chariots
> drop back behind the attached LMI.

This is a common US tactic that I never saw back in the UK (when there was
anyone there that played these rules!). I hate it. That is, I like it
when opponents do this, but I never would . The lack of impetuosity
hurts them unless the opponents are disordered foot (in which case you're
going to win without the LMI anyway!); if you're pushed back, the opponent
is now fighting a single rank of LMI who are disordered b/c they just got
interpenetrated by chariots! Plus, you can never roll long to catch
evading enemies, and you have to move in the foot section of approaches.

> >You can avoid chariots altogether and pick a list from the era (Early
> Hebrews come to mind as do the later Sumerian/Akkadian lists) that can
> actually hold it's own merely with foot. You can even move outside the
> period a little bit.
>
> >Then there's the old Midianite mirage options. I have em in 15mm,
> still can't run them worth a damn. Man they shoot well and of course
> get shot at equally well but in the early 90s, they were all the rage.

If we're talking Biblical, then I like some of the Book of Hosts lists -
which are now all defunct, I guess! I used to run Urartian (I think) with
9 4-man regular LC/LCm units and pretend I was a Mongol . Midianites
are superb in period - and even out of it, unless you get something like
pike that just keeps walking forward .

E

[joncleaves]

My Midianites will be in the Historicon theme waxing chariots all over the
place. Scott may not know how to fight them, but.....

Nothing like shooting a unit of chariots 36 at a 2....

Dont forget that chariots cause UNEASE in opponents. Small units, or
generals in chariots, scattered around supporting your troops might
just disable your opponent from charging impetuously, or make him
more likely to fail a waver test. As a fighting force, I do not find
2horse LCh much use against other Light Horse, but as a nuisance
(described above), they are great.

Then there is the 4 horse Heavy chariot with (I think I remember
correctly the Indian had six crew! - Lovely...except they changed the
rules so not all of them count). Very diffcult to beat in a frontal
charge, so if your opponent is stupid enough to let you in close
enough to charge, I beats about most things. The trouble is, it is
easy for your opponent to skimish against them and tire them out
first. So you have to think about supporting your heavy chariots with
other troops (I favour cavalry) who can get rid of any skirmishers
for you.

Well, all of that was true for 7th ed. I am still reading Warrior,
but I like what I see so far (well organised, good diagrams, cross
referencing)

Barry Lee
www.whitexgames.co.uk

> Any experienced chariot commanders have any
> suggestion on organization
> and
> tactics -- particularly of LCh?

I never played any chariot armies in 7th, err,
Warrior, but that is all I run in DBM. Now that I'm
moving away from DBM I too am interested in chariot
armies.

My experience facing chariots may lend a few insights.
I ran Maurikian Byzantines for a couple of years, and
I did so exclusively so that I could have Reg LI b/sh
and Reg LHI b/sh combinations. Chariots, l or h would
be shot to peices. I would set up an 8 fig LI unit in
front to face the charge (sometimes they would get
away from Hch if skirmishing, but I rarely shirmished
in front of mounted). Shoot, shoot, shoot! chariots
don't like bowfire after the LI was vaporized by
the charging chariots, a subgeneral with EHC buddies
would charge impet. into the rallying chariot and rout
them back into their lines. This was easier than say
HC, because the footprint of the chariots made it more
difficult for additional units to move up in support
of them. Also the rout path always seems to take them
back through the heart of the enemy army.

That being said, the toughest chariots I've faced were
HAN; IIRC they had P, CB, 2HCT or something like that
on board and 4 horses. In units of 4 they were tough.
And routing the detachment didn't do much to defeat
the unit either :)

boyd


=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

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[Tim Brown]

Unless I'm mistaken and I'm sure the rules god is watching, falling back
through ranks, as well as exchanging ranks is neither a cause of disorder
nor a disordering interpenetration. I would think you can't have a body
interpenetrate itself - it takes two. However,if fighting against cav one
could argue that since the recoiling body includes foot, then it's
disordered anyway. Why you would want to fall back through regardless is
questionable. Although the horses wouldn't fight in the second bound, at
least the crew would, which they would not if they became the second rank.
Hmm...it depends on the number of crew vs half or all the number of foot
fighting. Since every fighting factor favors having the chariots up front,
unless I had 2 ranks of foot to fall back through, and the number of chariot
crew was less than half a foot rank that could potentially fight, plus the
opponent has to be foot, I think in all other circumstances I'd leave the
chariots up front and hope the dice got em going forward again.

-----Original Message-----
From: ewan.mcnay@...
To: IPM Return requested
Sent: 4/17/2002 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Chariot tactics
snipped...

"The lack of impetuosity
hurts them unless the opponents are disordered foot (in which case you're
going to win without the LMI anyway!); if you're pushed back, the opponent
is now fighting a single rank of LMI who are disordered b/c they just got
interpenetrated by chariots! "

[Mark Mallard]

have not got my copy of warrior yet

but my eqyptian lch used to get rid of li by shooting them to death and by
being in big units


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/19/02 12:51:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
JonCleaves@... writes:

<< Subj: Re: Re: [WarriorRules] Chariot tactics
Date: 4/19/02 12:51:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: JonCleaves@...
Reply-to: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com

My Midianites will be in the Historicon theme waxing chariots all over the
place. Scott may not know how to fight them, but.....

Nothing like shooting a unit of chariots 36 at a 2....
>>


The old Garrison Midianites molds have been aquired by Amazon Miniatures.
Find them under Ancients:other. Check out the price. Midianites are VERY
affordable.

John C

[Chris Bump]

Ahhhh David,
A good shot to be sure, but I think not at the same level of destruction
being described by Pat and Ewan.
IIRC Pat's example was not casulities but rather cpf's. Ewan's example of 4
LCm in a crossfire is akin to what Pat was describing. It was like one of
those movie scenes where the cloud of dust settles and no one is left
standing.

Chris


In a message dated 04/19/2002 8:58:06 AM Central Daylight Time,
davidsmith@... writes:

<< Well....in my third tutorial installment of Fast Warrior on Wednesday
night, I had a unit of 16 Sari (Neo-Assyrians), with dart in the
front rank and bows in the second rank, put 64 casualties in
preperatory shooting on a unit of Kelly's NKE infantry. Of course it
helped that I rolled up 3. 8^)

Dave


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Patrick <cuan@w...> wrote:
> Why is it that the whole room seems to go silent when someone calls
out 36
> at a 2 in prep shooting?
>
> But the best shot I've seen is a LC unit take 26 casualties with
one shot.
> -PB >>

[Ewan McNay]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 JonCleaves@... wrote:
> My Midianites will be in the Historicon theme waxing chariots all over the
place. Scott may not know how to fight them, but.....
>
> Nothing like shooting a unit of chariots 36 at a 2....

Yep. Don't even try to fight them with mounted.

[Or if you have to, put your chariots in column, and hit the end of a
unit, which will (i) pin it and (ii) prevent the front rank from support
shooting when your supporting foot charge in - and the camels are *really*
bad in hth!]

[Which means that they may well be in skirmish, somewhat reducing their
shooting power - hence objective 1 achieved. Objective 2 is now to roll
up in the chariot charge and catch them!]

[And all of this means that what you really want to fight them with, in
period, is either massed close foot - which will get very slow! - or
ideally, Reg LMI JLS, Sh. Or, given the morale changes in Warrior, just
kill off all the compulsory LI ]

E

[Patrick Byrne]

Why is it that the whole room seems to go silent when someone calls out 36
at a 2 in prep shooting?

But the best shot I've seen is a LC unit take 26 casualties with one shot.
-PB

> From: JonCleaves@...
> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:04:00 -0400
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Re: [WarriorRules] Chariot tactics
>
> My Midianites will be in the Historicon theme waxing chariots all over the
> place. Scott may not know how to fight them, but.....
>
> Nothing like shooting a unit of chariots 36 at a 2....
>

[Dave Smith]

Well....in my third tutorial installment of Fast Warrior on Wednesday
night, I had a unit of 16 Sari (Neo-Assyrians), with dart in the
front rank and bows in the second rank, put 64 casualties in
preperatory shooting on a unit of Kelly's NKE infantry. Of course it
helped that I rolled up 3. 8^)

Dave


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Patrick <cuan@w...> wrote:
> Why is it that the whole room seems to go silent when someone calls
out 36
> at a 2 in prep shooting?
>
> But the best shot I've seen is a LC unit take 26 casualties with
one shot.
> -PB
>
> > From: JonCleaves@a...
> > Reply-To: WarriorRules@y...
> > Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:04:00 -0400
> > To: WarriorRules@y...
> > Subject: Re: Re: [WarriorRules] Chariot tactics
> >
> > My Midianites will be in the Historicon theme waxing chariots all
over the
> > place. Scott may not know how to fight them, but.....
> >
> > Nothing like shooting a unit of chariots 36 at a 2....
> >

My Midianites caught a Turkish 12 man LC unit rallying forward...240 cpf
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Chariot tactics


Why is it that the whole room seems to go silent when someone calls out 36
at a 2 in prep shooting?

But the best shot I've seen is a LC unit take 26 casualties with one shot.
-PB

> From: JonCleaves@...
> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:04:00 -0400
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Re: [WarriorRules] Chariot tactics
>
> My Midianites will be in the Historicon theme waxing chariots all over the
> place. Scott may not know how to fight them, but.....
>
> Nothing like shooting a unit of chariots 36 at a 2....
>


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