Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/26/2004 23:45:44 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

I read 6.45 to say that you cannot go into skirmish unless you can
shoot and have a target in range of your shooting.


It also says: It can be formed only if the
unit has enemy in its own shooting range or if enemy approaching second
could move to that range.
So in your examples the reg unit could and the irreg unit could not.
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Larry Essick]

I read 6.45 to say that you cannot go into skirmish unless you can
shoot and have a target in range of your shooting.

I also read it to say that if the target moves, you must move to
within range or your maximum move distance if that would leave you
still out of range -- and that if you do not, then you must revert to
block formation.

In the situation of a Reg LMI JLS,D,Sh unit 240 paces from an Irr LMI
JLS,Sh unit, this seems to say that:

a) If the Reg unit moves first it cannot adopt skirmish as its maximum
move forward combined with the formation change into skirmish still
leaves it 40p too far away to shoot.
b) If the Irr unit moves first it cannot adopt skirmish as its maximum
move forward combined with the formation change into skirmish still
leaves it 200p too far away to shoot.

Am I reading all of these things correctly?

Larry

[Larry Essick]

> It also says: It can be formed only if the
> unit has enemy in its own shooting range or if enemy approaching
second
> could move to that range.
> So in your examples the reg unit could and the irreg unit could
not.

Thanks, I missed that. I presume that the other situations are as I
described (must move back into shooting range *or* maximum distance
forward, else revert to block)?

Larry

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 00:08:50 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

Thanks, I missed that. I presume that the other situations are as I
described (must move back into shooting range *or* maximum distance
forward, else revert to block)?

No. Maximum distance forward and reversion are not in the rules for
skirmish. You can't voluntarily make a move that takes or keeps your unit out
of
its own missile range. So if you can't do that it is not moving or it is
getting out of skirmish formation. the only reversion is when you charge or
turn.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Larry Essick]

> > I presume that the other situations are as I described
> > (must move back into shooting range *or* maximum
> > distance forward, else revert to block)?
>
> No. Maximum distance forward and reversion are not in the rules for
> skirmish. You can't voluntarily make a move that takes or keeps
your unit out of
> its own missile range. So if you can't do that it is not moving or
it is
> getting out of skirmish formation. the only reversion is when you
charge or turn.

Well, semantics....

If I cannot stay in skirmish formation I automatically become block
formation. Is that correct?

Because of how you worded your answer, does that mean that going from
skirmish formation into block formation counts as a formation change?

Next, a bit more on trying to stay in skirmish formation....

6.45 contains this:

"The restrictions on skirmish only limit the ability to actually adopt
the formation. Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to
stay within shooting range during your moves. You are not forced to
drop the formation based on an opponent's counter or retirement. Once
in skirmish, however, you cannot voluntarily make or not make a move
that takes or keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an enemy
body."

Now, some areas I'd like to highlight:

a) "Once in skirmish, you must do everything POSSIBLE...." What if
you do everything you possibly can, but you are still out of range?

b) "You are not forced to drop the formation based on an opponent's
counter or retirement." I presume that the next sentence is meant to
address what you have to do when an opponent counters or retires out
of your shooting range, is that correct?

c) What does "cannot voluntarily make or not make a move that takes or
keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an enemy body" mean?

More on item c:

1) If I cannot voluntarily make a move then I cannot volunatarily NOT
make it. Rather, if I cannot voluntarily make a move then I am
*compelled* to NOT make it.

2) I understand that if I shoot 40p that I cannot choose to make a
move that leaves me more than 40p away if I can move to within 40p.
This would, I suppose, be voluntarily moving and yet not moving far
enough -- which is the only way I can understand the wording. Is this
what you meant?

3) Suppose the target is LC that counters back 200p to 240p away from
my skirmishing LMI unit. I cannot voluntarily make a move that keeps
the LMI out of missile range. I cannot voluntarily NOT make a move
that keeps the LMI out of missile range. The two statements are
contradictory to one another. I do not have to drop skirmish because
of the enemy's counter and I must do everything possible to get back
into shooting range -- which I do by moving my maximum distance (120p)
towards the target. This is not voluntarily moving or not moving, but
is compelled by being in skirmish. If I fail to do "everything
possible" then I must come out of skirmish order. That is how the
rule seems to be written, but that is incorrect based on what you
replied. What am I not understanding?

Larry

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 11:22:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

> If I cannot stay in skirmish formation I automatically become block
> formation. Is that correct?>>

No, there is no 'free reversion' or 'automatically become block' out of skirmish
except when the body charges or turns. It is not semantics..
>
> Because of how you worded your answer, does that mean that going from
> skirmish formation into block formation counts as a formation change?>>

Yes, unless charging or turning.

>
> Next, a bit more on trying to stay in skirmish formation....
>
> 6.45 contains this:
>
> "The restrictions on skirmish only limit the ability to actually adopt
> the formation. Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to
> stay within shooting range during your moves. You are not forced to
> drop the formation based on an opponent's counter or retirement. Once
> in skirmish, however, you cannot voluntarily make or not make a move
> that takes or keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an enemy
> body."
>
> Now, some areas I'd like to highlight:
>
> a) "Once in skirmish, you must do everything POSSIBLE...." What if
> you do everything you possibly can, but you are still out of range?>>

If there is no way to get back in range you either don't move or you use a
manuever to change formation.

>
> b) "You are not forced to drop the formation based on an opponent's
> counter or retirement." I presume that the next sentence is meant to
> address what you have to do when an opponent counters or retires out
> of your shooting range, is that correct?>>

Yes.

>
> c) What does "cannot voluntarily make or not make a move that takes or
> keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an enemy body" mean?>>

It means that you cannot make a move such that you are in skirmish and not in
your own missile range of the enemy. The only exception is when he approaches
second and he can get into your missile range.

>
> More on item c:
>
> 1) If I cannot voluntarily make a move then I cannot volunatarily NOT
> make it. Rather, if I cannot voluntarily make a move then I am
> *compelled* to NOT make it.>>

I have no idea what that is trying to say. Not making a move isn't one type of
making a move.


>
> 2) I understand that if I shoot 40p that I cannot choose to make a
> move that leaves me more than 40p away if I can move to within 40p.
> This would, I suppose, be voluntarily moving and yet not moving far
> enough -- which is the only way I can understand the wording. Is this
> what you meant?>>

It is one example of it, yes.

>
> 3) Suppose the target is LC that counters back 200p to 240p away from
> my skirmishing LMI unit. I cannot voluntarily make a move that keeps
> the LMI out of missile range. I cannot voluntarily NOT make a move
> that keeps the LMI out of missile range. The two statements are
> contradictory to one another.>>

If he counters away, you are exempt. You quoted the passage that says this
above.

<< I do not have to drop skirmish because
> of the enemy's counter>>

True.

<< and I must do everything possible to get back
> into shooting range >>

You are exempt from this due to his counter.

Jon

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 15:08:28 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

The rules say that I can only adopt skirmish formation if:

a) The unit is in or will move within its shooting range, or
b) The target unit can move to within the skirmish unit's shooting
range.

The rules say that I do not have to leave skirmish formation if the
target counters or retires out of the skirmish unit's shooting range.

Question 1: Do I have the rules correct thus far?>>
Yes.



Now, a unit in skirmish formation has its target counter or retire out
of skirmish range. The rules say that:

1) I must do everything possible to get the skirmish unit back into
its shooting range.
2) I must use my "moves" to do this.
3) I cannot voluntarily (by my own choice) make a move that leaves the
skirmish unit outside its shooting range.
4) I cannot voluntarily (by my own choice) NOT make a move that leaves
the skirmish unit outside its shooting range.

Question 2: Do I still have the rules correct?>>
Yes, except the above does not include the exception for those units in
skirmish that have all their targets out of range due to a counter or
retirement.



It seems to me impossible to be correct at this point UNLESS
"voluntarily make or not make" means that I am forced to move the
skirmish unit. >>
If you view what you quoted above in isolation - but units who have their
target counter away are an exception.


Question 3: Is there a different meaning, or do one of these explain
the meaning?>>
One of what? There is no 'different meaning' that I am aware of.



Question 4: Which of the two explain the meaning???
Neither. By leaving out the exception for countering targets, you have
removed a key rules from consideration.

<<Finally, you said that a unit in skirmish must move to within shooting
range or else not move at all if its target counters or retires to out
of shooting range. I don't see how I can do either if the distance is
too far for the skirmish unit to move. The first is just not possible
at all and the second is not doing everything possible -- it is doing
nothing.>>
I do not agree and the above is not a rules question. I am sorry, but these
strange theoreticals are not something I can help you with.


<<Question 5: How does your answer fit within the rules?>>
I have answered entirely within the rules. Of course. This is not a rules
question, it is a poke in my eye...I would really prefer you don't do this.

<<"Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to stay within
shooting range during your moves." This seems to compel movement and
seems to allow movement over more than one bound -- all retaining
skirmish formation.>>
True.

<<Question 6: If already in skirmish formation, with the target moved
back to beyond my shooting range and too far away to bring back into
range with a full move, what action can I take if I want to stay in
skirmish?>>
You can move as far towards him as possible. This will be tough in the same
bound as it is now the counter/retire phase and you can't get closer to him.
Also, you may have moved in approaches. I also don't know which of you
countered first....The example is incomplete, but I will take a guess at what
you are asking.
The rules that matter to what I *think* you are asking are these:
"Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to stay within shooting
range during your moves.
"You are not forced to drop the formation based on an opponent's counter or
retirement."
"Once in skirmish, however, you cannot voluntarily make or not make a move
that takes or keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an enemy body. "
Would it be better if you read those with the middle sentence last and
preceded by 'As an exception,'?
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 17:12:50 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

Second, I am not asking theoreticals.

Third, I am asking about a unit that has gone into skirmish and had
its target counter or retire to outside of shooting range.>>
Of all targets? Had the unit approached? Which side counters first? These
are relevant questions to any example that is used to illustrate these rules.



Fourth, I know that the skirmish unit cannot move in the bound that
the counter or retirement occurs because of the sequence of a bound.>.
Well, it certainly *could* if it had not yet apporached and was rallied.
That's the issue, the exmaple was quite incomplete and not sufficient to use as
an answer all by itself.



Fifth, in the bound following the counter or retirement of the target
unit, what is the unit that is now in skirmish allowed to do???
I don't know - there are too many other unknowns. One example - is there an
enemy unit capable now of moving into missile range?

You
have said that it can move to within shooting range or remain in place
without moving. That does not seem consistent with the rules.>>
The 'counter exception' permits this. I am not sure what about that is
'inconsistent'.



The rules say that the unit must do everything possible to get into
range again. If LMI w JLS are in skirmish and their LC target
counters to 200p distant then in the next bound does the LMI

(a) not move at all (one of your original answers) or does it
(b) move 120p towards the target even though this is still 80p away
and out of shooting range or does it
(c) drop out of skirmish?>>
It does not have to do C certainly. Whether it does a or b is based on the
LC's move as well. If it could move back in missile range (which seems
likely) the LMI could just sit there...



I think that the answer cannot be (c) because 6.45 says an enemy
counter does not force you out of skirmish (and I think that this is
the exception you keep referring to).>>
TRUE!!



I think that the answer cannot be (a) because that is not doing
"everything possible" as required by 6.45 on my next move. Note also
that 6.45 says "moves" and that I am assuming that this means that I
can take more than one move (over more than one bound) to get back
into shooting range without having to give up being in skirmish.>>
Depends on the LC and the rest of the table.



So, I think the answer must be (b). That is what I had in the
original e-mail, but you said that the answer was a. I cannot
understand how this is possible given how 6.45 is written.>>
I was trying to guess how the example looked. If an LC counters in bound N
in bound N+1 it could be right back in missile range. this is the issue with
these type questions...



Sixth, it is a rules question because it deals with how to correctly
understand 6.45 and how to apply it once a unit is in skirmish.>>
It needs a clear, specific example, if it is to be an example based question.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Larry Essick]

----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Skirmish question


> In a message dated 5/27/2004 11:22:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:
>
> > If I cannot stay in skirmish formation I automatically become
block
> > formation. Is that correct?>>
>
> No, there is no 'free reversion' or 'automatically become block' out
of skirmish except when the body charges or turns. It is not
semantics..
> >
> > Because of how you worded your answer, does that mean that going
from
> > skirmish formation into block formation counts as a formation
change?>>
>
> Yes, unless charging or turning.
>
> >
> > Next, a bit more on trying to stay in skirmish formation....
> >
> > 6.45 contains this:
> >
> > "The restrictions on skirmish only limit the ability to actually
adopt
> > the formation. Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible
to
> > stay within shooting range during your moves. You are not forced
to
> > drop the formation based on an opponent's counter or retirement.
Once
> > in skirmish, however, you cannot voluntarily make or not make a
move
> > that takes or keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an
enemy
> > body."
> >
> > Now, some areas I'd like to highlight:
> >
> > a) "Once in skirmish, you must do everything POSSIBLE...." What
if
> > you do everything you possibly can, but you are still out of
range?>>
>
> If there is no way to get back in range you either don't move or you
use a manuever to change formation.
>

So, if I cannot get back into shooting range I must change into block
formation OR I must stay where I am and remain in skirmish?

That means that if the target uses a counter to move beyond shooting
range and, in the next bound, no move by me will put me into shooting
range, that I get to remain in skirmish but cannot move. Is that one
of my options?

If I understand you correctly, my other option is to use a formation
change to go from skirmish to some other formation -- and I must do so
if I move. Is that also correct?

So, I can only retain skirmish formation and also move if I get into
or remain in my shooting range -- is that correct?

> > c) What does "cannot voluntarily make or not make a move that
takes or
> > keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an enemy body"
mean?>>
>
> It means that you cannot make a move such that you are in skirmish
and not in your own missile range of the enemy. The only exception is
when he approaches second and he can get into your missile range.
>

I don't think that this is correct. The exception you cite is for
getting into skirmish initially, it has nothing to do with your unit
once it is in skirmish. At least, that is what 6.45 says, "The
restrictions on skirmish only limit the ability to actually adopt the
formation. Once in skirmish...."

The question refers to a unit already in skirmish formation whose
target is no longer in range. That skirmishing unit cannot
"voluntarily make or NOT make" a move to keep it out of shooting
range.

Now, not making a move means either not moving at all or moving less
distance than than needed to get to within shooting range. Is that
correct?

> > More on item c:
> >
> > 1) If I cannot voluntarily make a move then I cannot volunatarily
NOT
> > make it. Rather, if I cannot voluntarily make a move then I am
> > *compelled* to NOT make it.>>
>
> I have no idea what that is trying to say. Not making a move isn't
one type of making a move.

If my skirmishing unit is LMI with JLS it can shoot 40p and it can
move 120p. If the target is initially 40p away and counters to move
another 160p away then I cannot, in the next bound, get back to within
40p.

The rules state that I must "do everything possible to stay within
shooting range" during my move. Staying in place is not doing
everything possible. While a maximum movement of 120p will still
leave me too far away to shoot, it is the maximum amount that I can
do -- everything possible -- to stay within range.

I do not have to choose to change formation because 6.45 says that I
am "not forced to drop the formation...." OTOH, I cannot see your
response as fitting "do everything possible...."

> > 3) Suppose the target is LC that counters back 200p to 240p away
from
> > my skirmishing LMI unit. I cannot voluntarily make a move that
keeps
> > the LMI out of missile range. I cannot voluntarily NOT make a
move
> > that keeps the LMI out of missile range. The two statements are
> > contradictory to one another.>>
>
> If he counters away, you are exempt. You quoted the passage that
says this above.

But, I am not really exempt. I must do everything "possible" in my
next move to get back into range. No possible move will do that.
Thus my next statement --

> << I do not have to drop skirmish because
> > of the enemy's counter>>
>
> True.
>
> << and I must do everything possible to get back
> > into shooting range >>
>
> You are exempt from this due to his counter.

Once more, I don't think that this is correct. How does this fit with
"must do everything possible to stay within shooting range" during my
"moves."

Note that "moves" is plural -- implying to me that it might take more
than one move to get back into range. IMO, the rules say that I do
not have to give up skirmish formation and I do not need to remain
stationary *but* that I must "do everything possible" to get back into
shooting range.

In doing this, I cannot take any move that "keeps the unit out of its
own missile range...." That is where the problem comes in. Any move
that I make (see the LMI v LC examples that I have given) takes more
than one move to get back into shooting range.

o The rules say I do not have to come out of skirmish.
o The rules say I do have to do everything possible to get back into
range.
o The rules say I have 'moves' to do this (implying multiple bounds,
some of which leave the unit still out of shooting range).
o The rules say I cannot voluntarily make a move that keeps the unit
out of shooting range.
o The rules say I cannot voluntarily not make a move that keeps the
unit out of shooting range.

(Note that these last two are mutually exclusive since you cannot both
do and not do something.)

I cannot figure out how all of these can apply all at the same time
since moving but not getting into range is allowed by the second and
third items but prohibited by the fourth and fifth. The fourth
prohibits the fifth (and vice versa).

The only way I can reconcile these is that the unit is compelled (not
a voluntary move) to move forward maximum distance in an effort to get
back into shooting range. If I choose to not take this compulsory
movement then I must change formation from skirmish to something else.

But, if I take the compulsory move then I do not have to "drop the
formation" because of the first bullet.

What am I missing?

Larry

[joncleaves]

Ok, Larry, I am trying to answer your questions, but the continued use of
inserted opinion is making it impossible.

Please ask separate questions and do not intersperse what you think is correct
or your opinion on how it should be. That makes me lose track of what you are
asking...

If you'd like to take your questions offline, that would be ok with me too.

JJon

[Larry Essick]

> Ok, Larry, I am trying to answer your questions, but the continued
use of inserted opinion is making it impossible.
>
> Please ask separate questions and do not intersperse what you think
is correct or your opinion on how it should be. That makes me lose
track of what you are asking...
>
> If you'd like to take your questions offline, that would be ok with
me too.

I'm trying to make it as simple as I know how.

The rules say that I can only adopt skirmish formation if:

a) The unit is in or will move within its shooting range, or
b) The target unit can move to within the skirmish unit's shooting
range.

The rules say that I do not have to leave skirmish formation if the
target counters or retires out of the skirmish unit's shooting range.

Question 1: Do I have the rules correct thus far?

Now, a unit in skirmish formation has its target counter or retire out
of skirmish range. The rules say that:

1) I must do everything possible to get the skirmish unit back into
its shooting range.
2) I must use my "moves" to do this.
3) I cannot voluntarily (by my own choice) make a move that leaves the
skirmish unit outside its shooting range.
4) I cannot voluntarily (by my own choice) NOT make a move that leaves
the skirmish unit outside its shooting range.

Question 2: Do I still have the rules correct?

It seems to me impossible to be correct at this point UNLESS
"voluntarily make or not make" means that I am forced to move the
skirmish unit. Otherwise 3 and 4 above cannot both apply. The only
other possible explanation is that 3 and 4 mean that the skirmish unit
cannot move to a point outside shooting range, even if moving first,
but must move to within shooting range if it can.

Question 3: Is there a different meaning, or do one of these explain
the meaning?

Question 4: Which of the two explain the meaning?

Finally, you said that a unit in skirmish must move to within shooting
range or else not move at all if its target counters or retires to out
of shooting range. I don't see how I can do either if the distance is
too far for the skirmish unit to move. The first is just not possible
at all and the second is not doing everything possible -- it is doing
nothing.

Question 5: How does your answer fit within the rules?

"Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to stay within
shooting range during your moves." This seems to compel movement and
seems to allow movement over more than one bound -- all retaining
skirmish formation.

Question 6: If already in skirmish formation, with the target moved
back to beyond my shooting range and too far away to bring back into
range with a full move, what action can I take if I want to stay in
skirmish?

Larry

[Larry Essick]

Jon,

First, there is no poking anyone anywhere. You gave an anwer to my
first e-mail that I don't believe is correct and I am trying to
understand your answer. I recognize that I might not have asked the
question in a way for you to understand.

Second, I am not asking theoreticals.

Third, I am asking about a unit that has gone into skirmish and had
its target counter or retire to outside of shooting range.

Fourth, I know that the skirmish unit cannot move in the bound that
the counter or retirement occurs because of the sequence of a bound.

Fifth, in the bound following the counter or retirement of the target
unit, what is the unit that is now in skirmish allowed to do? You
have said that it can move to within shooting range or remain in place
without moving. That does not seem consistent with the rules.

The rules say that the unit must do everything possible to get into
range again. If LMI w JLS are in skirmish and their LC target
counters to 200p distant then in the next bound does the LMI

(a) not move at all (one of your original answers) or does it
(b) move 120p towards the target even though this is still 80p away
and out of shooting range or does it
(c) drop out of skirmish?

I think that the answer cannot be (c) because 6.45 says an enemy
counter does not force you out of skirmish (and I think that this is
the exception you keep referring to).

I think that the answer cannot be (a) because that is not doing
"everything possible" as required by 6.45 on my next move. Note also
that 6.45 says "moves" and that I am assuming that this means that I
can take more than one move (over more than one bound) to get back
into shooting range without having to give up being in skirmish.

So, I think the answer must be (b). That is what I had in the
original e-mail, but you said that the answer was a. I cannot
understand how this is possible given how 6.45 is written.

Sixth, it is a rules question because it deals with how to correctly
understand 6.45 and how to apply it once a unit is in skirmish.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Skirmish question


> In a message dated 5/27/2004 15:08:28 Central Daylight Time,
> larryessick@... writes:
>
> The rules say that I can only adopt skirmish formation if:
>
> a) The unit is in or will move within its shooting range, or
> b) The target unit can move to within the skirmish unit's shooting
> range.
>
> The rules say that I do not have to leave skirmish formation if the
> target counters or retires out of the skirmish unit's shooting
range.
>
> Question 1: Do I have the rules correct thus far?>>
> Yes.
>
>
>
> Now, a unit in skirmish formation has its target counter or retire
out
> of skirmish range. The rules say that:
>
> 1) I must do everything possible to get the skirmish unit back into
> its shooting range.
> 2) I must use my "moves" to do this.
> 3) I cannot voluntarily (by my own choice) make a move that leaves
the
> skirmish unit outside its shooting range.
> 4) I cannot voluntarily (by my own choice) NOT make a move that
leaves
> the skirmish unit outside its shooting range.
>
> Question 2: Do I still have the rules correct?>>
> Yes, except the above does not include the exception for those units
in
> skirmish that have all their targets out of range due to a counter
or retirement.
>
>
>
> It seems to me impossible to be correct at this point UNLESS
> "voluntarily make or not make" means that I am forced to move the
> skirmish unit. >>
> If you view what you quoted above in isolation - but units who have
their
> target counter away are an exception.
>
>
> Question 3: Is there a different meaning, or do one of these
explain
> the meaning?>>
> One of what? There is no 'different meaning' that I am aware of.
>
>
>
> Question 4: Which of the two explain the meaning???
> Neither. By leaving out the exception for countering targets, you
have
> removed a key rules from consideration.
>
> <<Finally, you said that a unit in skirmish must move to within
shooting
> range or else not move at all if its target counters or retires to
out
> of shooting range. I don't see how I can do either if the distance
is
> too far for the skirmish unit to move. The first is just not
possible
> at all and the second is not doing everything possible -- it is
doing
> nothing.>>
> I do not agree and the above is not a rules question. I am sorry,
but these
> strange theoreticals are not something I can help you with.
>
>
> <<Question 5: How does your answer fit within the rules?>>
> I have answered entirely within the rules. Of course. This is not
a rules
> question, it is a poke in my eye...I would really prefer you don't
do this.
>
> <<"Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to stay within
> shooting range during your moves." This seems to compel movement
and
> seems to allow movement over more than one bound -- all retaining
> skirmish formation.>>
> True.
>
> <<Question 6: If already in skirmish formation, with the target
moved
> back to beyond my shooting range and too far away to bring back
into
> range with a full move, what action can I take if I want to stay in
> skirmish?>>
> You can move as far towards him as possible. This will be tough in
the same
> bound as it is now the counter/retire phase and you can't get closer
to him.
> Also, you may have moved in approaches. I also don't know which
of you
> countered first....The example is incomplete, but I will take a
guess at what
> you are asking.
> The rules that matter to what I *think* you are asking are these:
> "Once in skirmish, you must do everything possible to stay within
shooting
> range during your moves.
> "You are not forced to drop the formation based on an opponent's
counter or
> retirement."
> "Once in skirmish, however, you cannot voluntarily make or not make
a move
> that takes or keeps the unit out of its own missile range of an
enemy body. "
> Would it be better if you read those with the middle sentence last
and
> preceded by 'As an exception,'?
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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[Larry Essick]

Alright Jon,

Even simpler:

On bound 2 a unit of Reg LMI JLS,Sh makes an approach move toward a
Reg LC JLS,Sh unit that is 240p away. There are other units nearby,
but none affecting the interaction between the LMI and the LC as it is
on the far end of the line and the main effort is in the center of the
battlefield.

The LMI unit must move first because it is foot and the LC does not
choose to preempt the move.

Because the LC could move to within 40p the LMI adopts skirmish
formation. The LC, however, does not approach but remains 120p
distant.

On bound 3 the LMI unit moves forward 80p, taking it to shooting
range. The LC unit counters and, being Reg, turns around and moves
160p (it could have gone further) and ends with its rear towards the
LMI unit at a distance of 200p.

On bound 4 there are no other targets for the LMI to shoot at and none
that it can reach with a 120p move. The nearest enemy unit is the LC
(which the LMI needs to chase in any case because I don't want the LC
to shoot around my flank if the LMI heads off somewhere else).

Now, on bound 4, I cannot get to within shooting range of the LC as
the 120p move with the 40p shooting only gives me 160p -- making the
LC 40p too far away.

1. Do I have to drop out of skirmish with the LMI? I think the rules
and your answers are no, that I do not have to drop out of skirmish
because the LC moved away in a counter (in bound 3).

2. Do I have to not move at all? That is what you initially said, but
I don't think this is right because I am not doing everything I can do
to get back into shooting range.

3. Do I have to move 120p toward the LC? I think that I do because it
is the nearest enemy unit and if I do not then I have not done
everything possible to get back into range.

4. Does the "voluntarily make or not make" section mean that I cannot
just remain where I am even though the LC can turn and approach
because
a) I am not entering into skirmish, so that portion does not apply
and
b) I am not doing everything possible to get back into range?

It was initially a very simple question on how does a unit move once
it is in skirmish but after its target counters or retires away.

I don't think there is any reason to make the matter more complicated,
particularly because I am not trying to understand theoreticals but
only the basic mechanism of the rule itself.

Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Skirmish question


> In a message dated 5/27/2004 17:12:50 Central Daylight Time,
> larryessick@... writes:
>
> Second, I am not asking theoreticals.
>
> Third, I am asking about a unit that has gone into skirmish and had
> its target counter or retire to outside of shooting range.>>
> Of all targets? Had the unit approached? Which side counters
first? These
> are relevant questions to any example that is used to illustrate
these rules.
>
>
>
> Fourth, I know that the skirmish unit cannot move in the bound that
> the counter or retirement occurs because of the sequence of a
bound.>.
> Well, it certainly *could* if it had not yet apporached and was
rallied.
> That's the issue, the exmaple was quite incomplete and not
sufficient to use as
> an answer all by itself.
>
>
>
> Fifth, in the bound following the counter or retirement of the
target
> unit, what is the unit that is now in skirmish allowed to do???
> I don't know - there are too many other unknowns. One example - is
there an
> enemy unit capable now of moving into missile range?
>
> You
> have said that it can move to within shooting range or remain in
place
> without moving. That does not seem consistent with the rules.>>
> The 'counter exception' permits this. I am not sure what about that
is
> 'inconsistent'.
>
>
>
> The rules say that the unit must do everything possible to get into
> range again. If LMI w JLS are in skirmish and their LC target
> counters to 200p distant then in the next bound does the LMI
>
> (a) not move at all (one of your original answers) or does it
> (b) move 120p towards the target even though this is still 80p away
> and out of shooting range or does it
> (c) drop out of skirmish?>>
> It does not have to do C certainly. Whether it does a or b is based
on the
> LC's move as well. If it could move back in missile range (which
seems
> likely) the LMI could just sit there...
>
>
>
> I think that the answer cannot be (c) because 6.45 says an enemy
> counter does not force you out of skirmish (and I think that this
is
> the exception you keep referring to).>>
> TRUE!!
>
>
>
> I think that the answer cannot be (a) because that is not doing
> "everything possible" as required by 6.45 on my next move. Note
also
> that 6.45 says "moves" and that I am assuming that this means that
I
> can take more than one move (over more than one bound) to get back
> into shooting range without having to give up being in skirmish.>>
> Depends on the LC and the rest of the table.
>
>
>
> So, I think the answer must be (b). That is what I had in the
> original e-mail, but you said that the answer was a. I cannot
> understand how this is possible given how 6.45 is written.>>
> I was trying to guess how the example looked. If an LC counters in
bound N
> in bound N+1 it could be right back in missile range. this is the
issue with
> these type questions...
>
>
>
> Sixth, it is a rules question because it deals with how to
correctly
> understand 6.45 and how to apply it once a unit is in skirmish.>>
> It needs a clear, specific example, if it is to be an example based
question.
> J
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 18:19:11 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

The LC unit counters and, being Reg, turns around and moves
160p (it could have gone further) and ends with its rear towards the
LMI unit at a distance of 200p.

On bound 4 there are no other targets for the LMI to shoot at and none
that it can reach with a 120p move. The nearest enemy unit is the LC
(which the LMI needs to chase in any case because I don't want the LC
to shoot around my flank if the LMI heads off somewhere else).

Now, on bound 4, I cannot get to within shooting range of the LC as
the 120p move with the 40p shooting only gives me 160p -- making the
LC 40p too far away.>>
As the LC can move to your shooting range and approaches second, the LMI may
stay in skirmish. There is nothing about this example as written 'making'
the LMI do anything or preventing it from staying in skirmish.
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/27/2004 22:54:56 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

It does not appear that I can maintain skirmish just because the enemy
can move to within my shooting range.>>
After reading it several times again, I can see where one can read 6.45 as
saying that the enemy ability to approach second case does not apply to already
being in skirmish. It *does* apply and I will clarify it officially in the
next set of clarifications. Will that suffice?
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]