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A Four Horsemen Enterprises Rules Set
 
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The Teutonic Knights Theme at Historicon 2019
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: The Teutonic Knights Theme at Historicon 2019

Feudal Warrior:

1-Prussian
2-Lithuanian/Samogitian: No Hussites
3-Feudal German: No Hungarians, Italians
5-Early Polish: No Hungarians
7-Early Russian: No Hungarians
11-Medieval Scandinavian
19-Later Polish: No Wallachians/Moldavians, Hungarians, Serbians
20-Early Teutonic Knights
23-Post-Mongol Russian
25-Holy Roman Imperial (Early only): No Hungarians
33- Late Teutonic Knights

Oriental Warrior:

35-Mongol: No Chinese, Georgians, Armenians, Persians
37-Golden Horde: No Georgians, Armenians

You must be logged in to download the attached file. It contains the lists as they will be used for THIS EVENT ONLY.

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Last edited by scott holder on Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:08 pm; edited 7 times in total
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject:

Thanks, Scott!

Hey, everybody, please provide your comments and ask your questions. That helps us make these the best events they can be.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Teutonic theme

Mongol will be hard to beat, as will the Polish armies - everyone else should have fun but not playing to win or place, Teutons are not very good, so you have 2 a lists and a couple of B lists and the rest are C's
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scott holder
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject:

Weightings will matter.

I hope people who have Teuts bring them. The power gaming mentality when brought to the theme isn't a positive.

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Teutonic theme

lilroblis wrote:
Mongol will be hard to beat, as will the Polish armies - everyone else should have fun but not playing to win or place, Teutons are not very good, so you have 2 a lists and a couple of B lists and the rest are C's


I have to utterly smash Rob's statement here Wink.

It's really hard to win with Mongol given you have...a few elements of loose lancers...and a bunch of LC and that's it. You'll have to leverage both the terrain removal list rule and the flank march list rule to have a chance, otherwise you're just a useless puffy cloud that earns a draw at best.

Later Polish is solid, as is Early...those are lists we've seen at high levels of competition. However, Later Polish doesn't have 'great' infantry, just ok...and while Early has access to some, it's not 'ideal' in any sense.

Both the Teutonic lists are quite playable and have cool things you can do with Irr A SHK, efficient LC and some other tools.

Not sure I smashed Rob...but his pessimistic take is not warranted.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:49 pm    Post subject: Teutonic theme

Teuts are just a C army - and More points dont make them a lot better - I have a Teut army and would like to play it, once the weighting is posted Ill see if I can make a viable list, otherwise I guess Ill go polish - I dont care about winning- but I also dont want to sit there thinking there is nothing I can do - eg Mongols, Golden Horde, or that the enemy is half the price - Polish
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Teutonic theme

lilroblis wrote:
Teuts are just a C army - and More points dont make them a lot better - I have a Teut army and would like to play it, once the weighting is posted Ill see if I can make a viable list, otherwise I guess Ill go polish - I dont care about winning- but I also dont want to sit there thinking there is nothing I can do - eg Mongols, Golden Horde, or that the enemy is half the price - Polish


Look at Early Teutonic with very cost efficient barbarian blobs of Irr D(a little C) Prussians with shieldless rear ranks...Irr D LC B...Irr D LI B, Irr A SHK/EHK, etc. The fact that your knights don't entirely have to be SHK is a savings, and you can get the Crusader knights so you don't have to have much Regulars.

Consider HC rear rank(s) for the Regular SHK...then the goal is to get everybody up into an impetuous charge, knights providing eagerness to the Prussian foot...there are no chariots or elephants, so...should be solid.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject:

I'm with Rob. Right now I'm expecting the theme to be 40% Polish, 40% Mongol, and 20% "What was I thinking? These guys are gonna just die out here."
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Early Teutonic

Early Teutonic would be something like:
CinC PA Reg A/B SHK/EHK L,Sh 223
Sub similar 153
2E Reg B HC L,Sh 76
3 units of 2E Irr A/B SHK/EHK L,Sh 381
2 units of 6E Irr D LC B 122
8E Irr D LI B 41
4 units of 9E Irr D(1 C) LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh(3)/JLS,Sh(1)/JLS(5) 304
3 units of 9E Irr D(1 C) LMI 2HCW,JLS,Sh(3)/JLS,Sh(2)/JLS(4) 237
That's 1537, 16 units, 2 cmds.

I'd play that...trying to send it in to the enemy army all at once across most of the table. Roll Some Dice!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Teutonic theme

Frank - against Mongols - you would never get to hit anything - 5:0 to mongols with any competent general and even rolls
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Teutonic theme

lilroblis wrote:
Frank - against Mongols - you would never get to hit anything - 5:0 to mongols with any competent general and even rolls


Oh, so you mean I get to push the Mongol army off the table?

Great! 5-0 for me
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:07 pm    Post subject: Teutonic theme

Frank glad it works for you, I would take Mongol against that list any time- and have an 80% win record - the rest because you passed all your wavers and my dice sucked
Against the LMI - I charge with EHC - 5@7=30 50% fail waver and rout, 50% 3@4, 2@2 13 = break through and now 75% rout / shake- rinse and repeat the Light cavalry just gets run down - you are left with knights which I can ignore unless they fail a waver test - and you cannot force me to fight. I don't think there are many better targets for a Mongol army - and yes Mongols struggle to get results, but teuts wont beat a competent Mongol army either.
You make the Teut LC fight rank and a half for example and they are playable - otherwise dead Teuts walking. The Polish have some good cav, knights, better foot etc. so playable - with Mongol I would happily take 1600 points of Mongols against 2000 points of Teuts, I may not win but neither will the teuts - and I could/should win - they have no shot unless I do dumb stuff.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:27 pm    Post subject: Teutonic theme

So - what I would propose is some love for the Teutons - make the infantry eligible for IRR/ Reg C all, Irr A 2 elements, let the light cav fight rank and a half if javelin armed, and you will see a lot of them, but right now they get no cheese and the mongols are a fondue - hello horse archer theme (again).
BTW I can probably loan someone a Teutonic army if they need one (I have 4000+ points of Teutons)- but please let me know early, so I can bring the army to Maine on vacation - which starts mid June
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Teutonic theme

lilroblis wrote:
Frank glad it works for you, I would take Mongol against that list any time- and have an 80% win record - the rest because you passed all your wavers and my dice sucked
Against the LMI - I charge with EHC - 5@7=30 50% fail waver and rout, 50% 3@4, 2@2 13 = break through and now 75% rout / shake- rinse and repeat the Light cavalry just gets run down - you are left with knights which I can ignore unless they fail a waver test - and you cannot force me to fight. I don't think there are many better targets for a Mongol army - and yes Mongols struggle to get results, but teuts wont beat a competent Mongol army either.
You make the Teut LC fight rank and a half for example and they are playable - otherwise dead Teuts walking. The Polish have some good cav, knights, better foot etc. so playable - with Mongol I would happily take 1600 points of Mongols against 2000 points of Teuts, I may not win but neither will the teuts - and I could/should win - they have no shot unless I do dumb stuff.


If you wish to charge the LMI in the open you can have nothing within 120 of any part of such unit...or it just charges impetuously, no waver then.

While that may be possible in some places, if you do rout a unit you can expect that Mongol lancer unit to be routed in return.

The Teutonic LC and LI in this case will be inaccessible , well behind the LMI and knights.

All this theory is nice, but Mongols are a durdly draw machine...as past history shows.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:07 am    Post subject: Teutonic lists

frank - I am glad you like the lists- I have owned the lead for 8 years used iit in half a dozen tournaments - and it has sucked in every one
On the charging - I salivate with any cav army whenever I meat that kind of unit - in the last 3 years - if I have any decent cav army I am about 12:0- including thracians (much better list) etc.
They just die- good morale is tougher - these are Id/C they suck
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