Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Greetings to all Warriors,

It's been some time now since I've added my thoughts to this
venerable list of sage thinkers and I must say it has been too long!
What I have to comment on has to do with numbers and history which
is set against game balance and the massive task of editing and
researching all of the lists in Classical Warrior. This work in and
of it's self must have been a huge undertaking. I must admit that it
has been the cause of my going back to read more and more about the
era than previous efforts. In this post, I wish though, to propose a
list comment and advise a change to a more realistic troop total for
a certain troop type for the happless foes of the Greeks and that
would be none other than the Later Acaemenid Persians. Specifically
this deals with Iphicrates and his reformed hoplites.
Most folks who dabble in this period are not aware that
Iphicrates,an Athenian by birth, distingquished himself at the age
of 18 in the Persian navy under the command of Pharnabazus at
Cnidus. He later served as the commander of the Great King's
Mercenaries and led his reformed "hoplites" into Egypt to put down
yet another rebellion in 373. So what's my point here? Iphicrates
trained and mustered over 12,000 of his reformed hoplites that were
used in a punitive expedition against the rebel Egyptians in 373 and
the list only allows for 8 elements...
Certainly one should not take my word only for such history. I
would hope that my friend, "The Greek" of Texan fame will chime in
and add his thoughts but I thought this passage from Nick Sekunda
and Simon Chew in their work by Osprey,"The Persian Army 560-330BC"
will add some light to this post. This Passage is on page 26 under
the title, "The reforms of Iphicrates".
"The peace of 387 BC once again made available large numbers of
Greek mercenaries for service with the King. First Cyprus, which had
revolted, was reconquered; and then, in 379BC, Pharnabazus started
to collect an expeditionary force to send against Egypt. It was
envisaged that Greek mercenaries, who were expendable, would be used
as the spearhead in this risky undertaking. Pharnabazus asked the
Athenians to send him their general Iphicrates, who had first
distinguished himself at the age of 18 while serving in the Persian
fleet at Cnidus under the command of Pharnabazus himself. He now
served as commander of the King's mercenaries. Unfortunately there
were just not enough mercenaries to be had in Greece at that time,
for war had broken out there once again. King Artaxerxes tried
vainly to make peace among (Comment: 'yeeah riiiight!)the Greeks in
375 BC. Some 20,000 Greek mercenaries had already been assembled,
but it seems that few of those were hoplites, perhaps only 8,000.
The increasing pauperization of Greece during the 4th century had
reduced the number of citizens who could afford to supply themselves
with hoplite equipment.
In order to remedy these deficiencies Iphicrates conceived the
idea of creating an 'Iphicratean peltast' who could fight in the
front line and stand up to hoplites. Essentially he was converting
the 12,000 non-hoplite Greek mercenaries into Takabara, but further
strengthening their equipment. His troops were given a taka, or
pelte as our Greek sources describe it, which Diodorus (15.44)
mentions as being equal in size to the hoplite shield. The fighting
spear was lengthened by half, from the normal 8-foot spear used by
hoplites and the takabara alike, to a 12-foot pike. These 12,000
troops were known as 'Iphicrateans' after their general and creator.
The invasion fleet finally set sail for Egypt in 373 BC, but
the invasion was a disaster. Pharnabazus, now an old man, refused to
take decisions without referring them to the King for approval, and
the iniative was lost. Iphicrates' enemies in the army started
plotting against him again; eventually the wily Athenian slipped
back to Athens in the hold of a ship, and his army of mercenaries
disintegrated. The Iphicrateans', however, had proved themselves on
the field of battle, and the Persian-inspired 'Iphicratean peltast'
now became a feature of warfare on the Greek mainland from the 360's
BC onwards, most spectacularly when Philip of Macedon used the
concept to reform the Macedonian army in 359 BC. The macedonian word
used for the 12-foot 'Iphicratean' pike was sarisa." ... And as Paul
Harvey would say, "That's the rest of the story. . . !"

So what are we to glean from all this. First, the Iphicratean
hoplite was originated and first used by the Persians. Second, it is
recorded that at least 12,000 were used historically in at least one
campaign. And third, if you're still reading this, you must really
dig history and this wonderful game of Warrior that we play! So
how do the numbers jive with the allowance on the list? Just in
casual reading, I noticed that the Thracian list in Classical
Warrior are allowed 24 elements of Greek Hoplites of which could
represent the returning '10,000' of Xenophon's fame. Using this as a
base number, I would think that the numbers of elements for the
Ipicrateans who numbered at least 12,000 in the Persian Army should
at least be 24 or more. And yes, I have too much time on my hands
and love history and Warrior which is by far the BEST GAME on the
market.
As a final comment, I do wish to state that I am thrilled that
FHE has added this troop type to the game. It truly gives one the
flavor of the period and shows an innovative creativitiy that makes
this game intriquing to play and puts it in a class all by itself.

Sincerely yours,

Chargeholio

Greetings Chargeholio,
One thing to consider is that the list represent more than just the raw numbers.
They also account for the percentages of the army.
TD

[Bill Chriss]

> Greetings to all Warriors,
>
> It's been some time now since I've added my thoughts to this
> venerable list of sage thinkers and I must say it has been too long!
> What I have to comment on has to do with numbers and history which
> is set against game balance and the massive task of editing and
> researching all of the lists in Classical Warrior. This work in and
> of it's self must have been a huge undertaking. I must admit that it
> has been the cause of my going back to read more and more about the
> era than previous efforts. In this post, I wish though, to propose a
> list comment and advise a change to a more realistic troop total for
> a certain troop type for the happless foes of the Greeks and that
> would be none other than the Later Acaemenid Persians. Specifically
> this deals with Iphicrates and his reformed hoplites.

Yes, I read the whole thing, and of course, I find this fascinating. I
will ponder this and get back to you. One thing I should mention is the
problem of list balance. Giving Persians 24 elements (four to six large to
medium sized units) of Greek hoplites might be problematic in terms of
obliterating the overall personality of the army. Also, I seem to recall
that other Greek armies with contingents of 10-12,000 of a certain type of
troop are often allowed only twelve elements to reflect that troop type.
I am not sure I am recalling this correctly, though, and will have to
check. Also, mercenaries in Persian service would doubtless be C class
morale, and these Iphicrateans should be LMI, LTS (no JLS), Sh. I'm not
sure you want to run 24 elements of them anyway!

One thing's for sure, Bill Low and/or Scott thought about this issue
before coming down one way or the other. Thanks for rthe history


Greek

So then you must then agree with me considering that of the 20,000 Greeks used
in the expedition, 12,000 were Iphicratean reformed hoplites(and it was Greeks
that were used to retake Cyprus and in the failed Egyptian expedition as they
were expendable). That would be over half of the forces represented and
therefore mandate more elements. Certainly one could look at the numbers
used for other lists. For instance, the Immortals supposedly with the Spear
bearers included had 10,000 standing soldiers. The Classical Warrior list allows
for 12 elements of the Immortals and 4 of the Spear bearers for a total of 16
elements. Whereas, The Seleucid Argyraspids who were supposedly a 10,000 man
force only receive 12. The point is, while armies like the Saite Egyptians get
24 elements, the originators of the troop type only get a paltry 8 elements. Go
back and read my evidence from the Osprey. I don't make this stuff up. Further,
you will note that in the Later Achaemenid List, Greek
mercenary troops made up the bulk of troops that retook Cyprus and that were
sent to retake Egypt. Look at the notes again my friend.

Chargeholio

Terry Dix <notalent@...> wrote:
Greetings Chargeholio,
One thing to consider is that the list represent more than just the raw numbers.
They also account for the percentages of the army.
TD




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My old friend,

You bring up many good points. When one considers that Greek infantry was
the most sought after and aped by the Persians(Takabara), it is not difficult to
realize that given the historical information, one could build a western Persian
army out of mostly hoplite armed soldiers. Remember that the reconquest of
Cyprus and the failed reconquest of Egypt consisted mainly of Greek soldiers.
And because this happened historically, how can this weaken the historical
flavor? Certainly eastern armies are different. But the list editors have
limited the numbers of Greeks in those regional forces. As to the morale issue,
I am in full agreement with you and the way they are represented in Classical
Warrior. And as a final comment. Not everything can be totally accounted for in
such a large period and that is what errata is for. My esteem for the editing
team is very high and I appreciate their efforts, nonetheless I still stand by
my assertion that the historical record proves the numbers
should be substantially higher. food for thought and discussion.

Chargeholio

hrisikos@... wrote:
> Greetings to all Warriors,
>
> It's been some time now since I've added my thoughts to this
> venerable list of sage thinkers and I must say it has been too long!
> What I have to comment on has to do with numbers and history which
> is set against game balance and the massive task of editing and
> researching all of the lists in Classical Warrior. This work in and
> of it's self must have been a huge undertaking. I must admit that it
> has been the cause of my going back to read more and more about the
> era than previous efforts. In this post, I wish though, to propose a
> list comment and advise a change to a more realistic troop total for
> a certain troop type for the happless foes of the Greeks and that
> would be none other than the Later Acaemenid Persians. Specifically
> this deals with Iphicrates and his reformed hoplites.

Yes, I read the whole thing, and of course, I find this fascinating. I
will ponder this and get back to you. One thing I should mention is the
problem of list balance. Giving Persians 24 elements (four to six large to
medium sized units) of Greek hoplites might be problematic in terms of
obliterating the overall personality of the army. Also, I seem to recall
that other Greek armies with contingents of 10-12,000 of a certain type of
troop are often allowed only twelve elements to reflect that troop type.
I am not sure I am recalling this correctly, though, and will have to
check. Also, mercenaries in Persian service would doubtless be C class
morale, and these Iphicrateans should be LMI, LTS (no JLS), Sh. I'm not
sure you want to run 24 elements of them anyway!

One thing's for sure, Bill Low and/or Scott thought about this issue
before coming down one way or the other. Thanks for rthe history


Greek



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[Bill Chriss]

> My old friend,
>
> You bring up many good points. When one considers that Greek
> infantry was the most sought after and aped by the
> Persians(Takabara), it is not difficult to realize that given the
> historical information, one could build a western Persian army out
> of mostly hoplite armed soldiers. Remember that the reconquest of
> Cyprus and the failed reconquest of Egypt consisted mainly of Greek
> soldiers. And because this happened historically, how can this
> weaken the historical flavor? Certainly eastern armies are
> different. But the list editors have limited the numbers of Greeks
> in those regional forces. As to the morale issue, I am in full
> agreement with you and the way they are represented in Classical
> Warrior. And as a final comment. Not everything can be totally
> accounted for in such a large period and that is what errata is for.
> My esteem for the editing team is very high and I appreciate their
> efforts, nonetheless I still stand by my assertion that the
> historical record proves the numbers
> should be substantially higher. food for thought and discussion.
>
> Chargeholio
>

What you say makes sense, but I seem to recall your immediate prior post
gives examples from other lists (or is the same one?) where around 10,000
Greeks are represented by 12 elements. Knowing little about the Persians
myself, I am interested in what Bill or Scott were thinking in craftimg
the list maximums. When I had questions about later hoplite Greek, Bill's
responses were so cogent that I was a bit embarassed to even have asked.
:-)


-Greek

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Embarrasment is no reason not to ask questions.
hrisikos@... wrote:> My old friend,
>
> You bring up many good points. When one considers that Greek
> infantry was the most sought after and aped by the
> Persians(Takabara), it is not difficult to realize that given the
> historical information, one could build a western Persian army out
> of mostly hoplite armed soldiers. Remember that the reconquest of
> Cyprus and the failed reconquest of Egypt consisted mainly of Greek
> soldiers. And because this happened historically, how can this
> weaken the historical flavor? Certainly eastern armies are
> different. But the list editors have limited the numbers of Greeks
> in those regional forces. As to the morale issue, I am in full
> agreement with you and the way they are represented in Classical
> Warrior. And as a final comment. Not everything can be totally
> accounted for in such a large period and that is what errata is for.
> My esteem for the editing team is very high and I appreciate their
> efforts, nonetheless I still stand by my assertion that the
> historical record proves the numbers
> should be substantially higher. food for thought and discussion.
>
> Chargeholio
>

What you say makes sense, but I seem to recall your immediate prior post
gives examples from other lists (or is the same one?) where around 10,000
Greeks are represented by 12 elements. Knowing little about the Persians
myself, I am interested in what Bill or Scott were thinking in craftimg
the list maximums. When I had questions about later hoplite Greek, Bill's
responses were so cogent that I was a bit embarassed to even have asked.
:-)


-Greek



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[joncleaves]

'Chargeholio', please identify yourself. I have asked you to do this
before...please comply or I will have to remove you from the group.

There are no secret identities here. I do not permit more than one account
per member and I have to police this list as best I can for spammers and
others trying to get around the group rules.

Thanks for your assistance in this matter.

Jon Cleaves, moderator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 04/07/2005 17:09:39 GMT Standard Time, JonCleaves@...
writes:

'Chargeholio', please identify yourself. I have asked you to do this
before...please comply or I will have to remove you from the group.

There are no secret identities here. I do not permit more than one account
per member and I have to police this list as best I can for spammers and
others trying to get around the group rules.

Thanks for your assistance in this matter.

Jon Cleaves, moderator




umm

whats the prob jon seem like reasonable comments to me..

mm



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/4/2005 17:30:18 Central Standard Time,
markmallard7@... writes:

umm

whats the prob jon seem like reasonable comments to me..

mm



Nothing to do with the comments per se, Mark. It is against my policy to
permit members more than one account on here. It is also my policy that when
asked, members identify themselves. If you want to have a secret identity, go
play a superhero game...lol

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Craig Scott]

Hi Chargeholio et al,

Please don't forget the Takabara LTS, that makes a total of 32
elements of LMI with LTS, Sh that are (nearly) Iphicretian trained.

I will reserve the vast bulk of my comments for the late and early
Achaemenids after the Historicon convention as promised.

Nice thinking please keep those ideas flowing (o:

Sincerely,

Craig Scott


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "chargeholio" <chargeholio@y...>
wrote:
> Greetings to all Warriors,
>
> It's been some time now since I've added my thoughts to this
> venerable list of sage thinkers and I must say it has been too
long!
> What I have to comment on has to do with numbers and history which
> is set against game balance and the massive task of editing and
> researching all of the lists in Classical Warrior. This work in and
> of it's self must have been a huge undertaking. I must admit that
it
> has been the cause of my going back to read more and more about the
> era than previous efforts. In this post, I wish though, to propose
a
> list comment and advise a change to a more realistic troop total
for
> a certain troop type for the happless foes of the Greeks and that
> would be none other than the Later Acaemenid Persians. Specifically
> this deals with Iphicrates and his reformed hoplites.
> Most folks who dabble in this period are not aware that
> Iphicrates,an Athenian by birth, distingquished himself at the age
> of 18 in the Persian navy under the command of Pharnabazus at
> Cnidus. He later served as the commander of the Great King's
> Mercenaries and led his reformed "hoplites" into Egypt to put down
> yet another rebellion in 373. So what's my point here? Iphicrates
> trained and mustered over 12,000 of his reformed hoplites that were
> used in a punitive expedition against the rebel Egyptians in 373
and
> the list only allows for 8 elements...
> Certainly one should not take my word only for such history. I
> would hope that my friend, "The Greek" of Texan fame will chime in
> and add his thoughts but I thought this passage from Nick Sekunda
> and Simon Chew in their work by Osprey,"The Persian Army 560-330BC"
> will add some light to this post. This Passage is on page 26 under
> the title, "The reforms of Iphicrates".
> "The peace of 387 BC once again made available large numbers
of
> Greek mercenaries for service with the King. First Cyprus, which
had
> revolted, was reconquered; and then, in 379BC, Pharnabazus started
> to collect an expeditionary force to send against Egypt. It was
> envisaged that Greek mercenaries, who were expendable, would be
used
> as the spearhead in this risky undertaking. Pharnabazus asked the
> Athenians to send him their general Iphicrates, who had first
> distinguished himself at the age of 18 while serving in the Persian
> fleet at Cnidus under the command of Pharnabazus himself. He now
> served as commander of the King's mercenaries. Unfortunately there
> were just not enough mercenaries to be had in Greece at that time,
> for war had broken out there once again. King Artaxerxes tried
> vainly to make peace among (Comment: 'yeeah riiiight!)the Greeks in
> 375 BC. Some 20,000 Greek mercenaries had already been assembled,
> but it seems that few of those were hoplites, perhaps only 8,000.
> The increasing pauperization of Greece during the 4th century had
> reduced the number of citizens who could afford to supply
themselves
> with hoplite equipment.
> In order to remedy these deficiencies Iphicrates conceived the
> idea of creating an 'Iphicratean peltast' who could fight in the
> front line and stand up to hoplites. Essentially he was converting
> the 12,000 non-hoplite Greek mercenaries into Takabara, but further
> strengthening their equipment. His troops were given a taka, or
> pelte as our Greek sources describe it, which Diodorus (15.44)
> mentions as being equal in size to the hoplite shield. The fighting
> spear was lengthened by half, from the normal 8-foot spear used by
> hoplites and the takabara alike, to a 12-foot pike. These 12,000
> troops were known as 'Iphicrateans' after their general and creator.
> The invasion fleet finally set sail for Egypt in 373 BC, but
> the invasion was a disaster. Pharnabazus, now an old man, refused
to
> take decisions without referring them to the King for approval, and
> the iniative was lost. Iphicrates' enemies in the army started
> plotting against him again; eventually the wily Athenian slipped
> back to Athens in the hold of a ship, and his army of mercenaries
> disintegrated. The Iphicrateans', however, had proved themselves on
> the field of battle, and the Persian-inspired 'Iphicratean peltast'
> now became a feature of warfare on the Greek mainland from the
360's
> BC onwards, most spectacularly when Philip of Macedon used the
> concept to reform the Macedonian army in 359 BC. The macedonian
word
> used for the 12-foot 'Iphicratean' pike was sarisa." ... And as
Paul
> Harvey would say, "That's the rest of the story. . . !"
>
> So what are we to glean from all this. First, the Iphicratean
> hoplite was originated and first used by the Persians. Second, it
is
> recorded that at least 12,000 were used historically in at least
one
> campaign. And third, if you're still reading this, you must really
> dig history and this wonderful game of Warrior that we play! So
> how do the numbers jive with the allowance on the list? Just in
> casual reading, I noticed that the Thracian list in Classical
> Warrior are allowed 24 elements of Greek Hoplites of which could
> represent the returning '10,000' of Xenophon's fame. Using this as
a
> base number, I would think that the numbers of elements for the
> Ipicrateans who numbered at least 12,000 in the Persian Army should
> at least be 24 or more. And yes, I have too much time on my hands
> and love history and Warrior which is by far the BEST GAME on the
> market.
> As a final comment, I do wish to state that I am thrilled that
> FHE has added this troop type to the game. It truly gives one the
> flavor of the period and shows an innovative creativitiy that makes
> this game intriquing to play and puts it in a class all by itself.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Chargeholio

[Craig Scott]

Incorrect Persian Light infantry are not accounted for especially the
bowmen; only 18 elements.
Craig
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Dix" <notalent@p...>
wrote:
> Greetings Chargeholio,
> One thing to consider is that the list represent more than just the
raw numbers. They also account for the percentages of the army.
> TD

Greetings Craig,
I was pointing out that the lists don't account for just the raw numbers, this
was a general comment not specific to the list in Question but to the design
concepts. There is game balance also.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "craigshar2" <craigshar@c...> wrote:
> Incorrect Persian Light infantry are not accounted for especially the
> bowmen; only 18 elements.
> Craig
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Dix" <notalent@p...>
> wrote:
> > Greetings Chargeholio,
> > One thing to consider is that the list represent more than just the
> raw numbers. They also account for the percentages of the army.
> > TD

[Craig Scott]

The statement is not meant as an attack any shape or form; you are a
good guy Terry!
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Dix" <notalent@p...>
wrote:
> Greetings Craig,
> I was pointing out that the lists don't account for just the raw
numbers, this was a general comment not specific to the list in
Question but to the design concepts. There is game balance also.
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "craigshar2" <craigshar@c...>
wrote:
> > Incorrect Persian Light infantry are not accounted for especially
the
> > bowmen; only 18 elements.
> > Craig
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Dix" <notalent@p...>
> > wrote:
> > > Greetings Chargeholio,
> > > One thing to consider is that the list represent more than just
the
> > raw numbers. They also account for the percentages of the army.
> > > TD

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/12/2005 18:45:00 Central Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

Moderator, I suggest that he be punished by being forced to write many
more posts in such vein on such topics as the group populace at large may
demand .



Working at FHE is punishment enough.... :)

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]