Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Disclaimer #1 (insert text as appropriate)
Disclaimer #2 (same, same)

Is there any chance that anyone would agree that the Regular Varangian Guard
needs some love? This is an old topic with me, but when you try to use these
guys with anything approaching historical tactics, you tend to get your butt
kicked by half-naked guys with short sticks.

To me, these guys got lost in the arms race of TOG 7.6. Scott gave them 1.5
ranks when charging/counter-charging but the fact of the matter is that against
historical opponents, nine times out of ten (more really), they are fighting
flat-footed. Some lists give them JLS back ranks, which is a solution that
seems to defy anything you read in any history book.

What about something like ...

List Rule: STEADY Regular A & B moral Varangian Guardsmen may always counter-
charge enemy foot, and get 1.5 ranks at first contact with enemy mounted.

List Rule: STEADY Regular A & B moral Varangian Guardsmen never count
shieldless. This may actually have some historical basis, as they were trained
to fight as a coordinated wall of axes, not really trying to turn the fight
into a mass one-on-one melee.

Just a thought ...
G

Chris Bump · Legate Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625

They could use some love, I agree. I don't think enough attention has been
given to various specialty units within the game and list rules. Too much
generalization in my opinion. But on the other hand nobody wants to try and go
back to the days of Empire x where there were charts for every regiment in the
French imperial guard and for different ligne, legere, chasseur and cuirassier
regiments with variances based on the year of the battle being played. Not to
the same degree but still onerous for every other player in late 18th and
early 19th century western warfare.

Obviously you don't think that they should count shielded if attacked on
their right flank,..... Do you?
Chris

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Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Good point ... frontal attacks against steady, to be sure.

> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> They could use some love, I agree. I don't think enough attention has been
 
> given to various specialty units within the game and list rules. Too much
 
> generalization in my opinion. But on the other hand nobody wants to try and
go 
> back to the days of Empire x where there were charts for every regiment in
the 
> French imperial guard and for different ligne, legere, chasseur and
cuirassier 
> regiments with variances based on the year of the battle being played. Not
to 
> the same degree but still onerous for every other player in late 18th and 
> early 19th century western warfare. 
> 
> Obviously you don't think that they should count shielded if attacked on 
> their right flank,..... Do you? 
> Chris 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
> 
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joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/3/2003 12:07:31 Central Daylight Time, cncbump@...
writes:

> I don't think enough attention has been
> given to various specialty units within the game and list rules.

<shellshocked look>

Well, we did agree when we started this that we just weren't going to be able
to please everyone....lol

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Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

So ... are there any actual thoughts on Varangian Guard here?

I know you can't satify everyone, and there can be no doubt that we can all
continue to not purchase the best historical units in the mid-later Byzantine
army - and be completely happy with that result ...

but ...

Wouldn't it just be easier to admit that the pooch was screwed, and give these
guys some love already.

Or, is all that love reserved for moogs and chin-iki-nese?

Greg

Chris Bump · Legate Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625

In a message dated 7/3/2003 2:35:19 PM Central Standard Time,
JonCleaves@... writes:

> <shellshocked look>
>
> Well, we did agree when we started this that we just weren't going to be
> able
> to please everyone....lol
>

Yea, yea, yea....I'm sure your feigned shellshocked look is the best one a
remf could muster given the consistent barrage of perceived attacks and
complaints. It must get old after a while. Maybe that should be in the past
tense.
Chris

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joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/3/2003 14:55:55 Central Daylight Time, cncbump@...
writes:

> Yea, yea, yea....I'm sure your feigned shellshocked look is the best one a
> remf could muster given the consistent barrage of perceived attacks and
> complaints. It must get old after a while. Maybe that should be in the
> past tense.
> Chris
>

Take a chill pill, pal. I am assuming for the sake of tranquility that the
above is all in jest, but it is pretty borderline...

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Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Yankees ... they can never tell when someone is messing with them on a boring
Thursday.
~wink~

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/3/2003 15:34:06 Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:

> Wouldn't it just be easier to admit that the pooch was screwed, and give
> these
> guys some love already.
>

Greg

I am deferring to Scott and Paul. I have no books with actual fights between
regular Varagians and an enemy in a 'unit on unit' fight.

Maybe you could enlighten us all with what you have?

Can't admit the pooch was screwed unless we are made to believe a pooch
screwing occurred....

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joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/3/2003 16:38:04 Central Daylight Time, gar@...
writes:

> Yankees ... they can never tell when someone is messing with them on a
> boring
> Thursday.
> ~wink~
>

I am very happy to hear you have extra time on your hands. Good for you!

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Kelly Wilkinson · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Regular Varangian Guard

Chris,
I disagree strongly with your comments concerning Gregs very valid
concerns. If the Swiss or other lists are deserving of a list rule then so
should the Elite of the Byzantine Empire. I actually think Gregs thoughts are
quite valid. It seems that becoming Regular close order is actually a huge
negative. I wonder... Didn't they have an option in the old WRG lists to be
armed with an LTS? Just curious about that. I own 32 very beautifully painted
Regular Varangian Guardsmen that will never see a table top because in the
present system, they do not measure up. Period. Why not fix this?

Kelly

---------------------------------
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Chris Bump · Legate Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1625

In a message dated 7/3/2003 7:48:01 PM Central Standard Time,
jwilkinson62@... writes:

> Chris,
> I disagree strongly with your comments concerning Gregs very valid
> concerns. If the Swiss or other lists are deserving of a list rule then so
should
> the Elite of the Byzantine Empire. I actually think Gregs thoughts are quite
> valid. It seems that becoming Regular close order is actually a huge
> negative. I wonder... Didn't they have an option in the old WRG lists to be
armed
> with an LTS? Just curious about that. I own 32 very beautifully painted
> Regular Varangian Guardsmen that will never see a table top because in the
present
> system, they do not measure up. Period. Why not fix this?
>
> Kelly
>

What are you talking about? I agreed with Greg.

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Paul Georgian · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Regular Varangian Guard

In a message dated 7/4/2003 9:45:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, gar@...
writes:

> So ... are there any actual thoughts on Varangian Guard here?
>
> I know you can't satify everyone, and there can be no doubt that we can all
> continue to not purchase the best historical units in the mid-later
> Byzantine
> army - and be completely happy with that result ...
>
> but ...
>
> Wouldn't it just be easier to admit that the pooch was screwed, and give
> these
> guys some love already.
>
> Or, is all that love reserved for moogs and chin-iki-nese?

Well, Greg sometimes that's the way it goes. Trust me, as the list author if
I could have made the Regular Varangians useful and worth the point cost, I
would have, but the limitations inherent on combat ability of regular troops
built into Warrior (and DBM BTW) that you already pointed out meant this wasn't
possible for Reg Varangians any more than for Praetorian Guards. Yes, I could
have made some special Reg Varangian rule but I refrained from that as I
didn't feel it was in my portfolio when I wrote the list. As someone mentioned,
we might have allowed an option for Reg Varangians to have LTS as there is some
evidence that they might have been so equipped for particular events.
Frankly, the real fighting evidence for the Varangian Guard is not adequately
detailed to distinguish what was a regular vs. irregular Varangian Guardsmen
precisely. In my judgement, those fighting for Basil II were almost certainly
irregulars, Harold Hardrada's boys in Sicily and the Balkans could count as
either,
Alexios Comnenus Guards at Durazzo should have been regulars but certainly
acted like irregulars charging into the Norman battle line and the steady
advance
of John Comnenus' Varangians against the Petcheneg wagon lager indicates a
stong possibililty that they were regulars.

Paul G.

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joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/4/2003 12:25:32 Central Daylight Time, PaulByzan@...
writes:

> Yes, I could
> have made some special Reg Varangian rule but I refrained from that as I
> didn't feel it was in my portfolio when I wrote the list.

For the future - any list reviewer, indeed any Warrior player, is free to
recommend list rules for any troop type in any list. We'd prefer to have this
before we publish, but we will listen to any recommendation that comes with some
historical backing.

We don't have quite the same charter on lists as we do on core rules. We
won't change core rules, but we could possible change a troop type - but if it
is
after we publish, I would only permit one to be changed that gives it more
options or makes it 'better' - I will *NOT* subscribe to cutting the legs from
under a unit someone may have bought after reading one of our lists. This is
over and above the requirement that a list rule addition would have to have an
histocial basis.

>
> Frankly, the real fighting evidence for the Varangian Guard is not
> adequately
> detailed to distinguish what was a regular vs. irregular Varangian Guardsmen
>
> precisely.

Indeed. Thanks, Paul. Thanks a great deal, in fact.

Jon

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joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

In a message dated 7/4/2003 13:21:59 Central Daylight Time,
ragingbullmf@... writes:

> But, can you say "Almughavar"?
>

Can you say we have more examples and more specific ones of almughavars in
combat defeating certain troop types than we do Varangians?

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