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New Later Ottoman Turk

 
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: New Later Ottoman Turk

Among the Holy Warrior revised lists is a much more playable version of Later Ottoman Turk.

I thought I'd throw out a version maximizing the Janissaries.

CinC PA 2E Reg A/B EHC/HC L,B,Sh 201
Sub similar 131
7E Irr D(1 C) MC B 91
2x6E Irr D(1 C) LC B 126
2x6E Irr D LI B 74
7x4E Reg B LMI LTS,B,Sh/LTS,B 686
2x4E Reg B LHI/LMI 2HCT,HG,Sh/JLS,CB
w/ 2 stakes 252
4E Reg B LMI LTS,B,Sh/LTS,B 98
2 6E segments of Ditch 30 = 1591
16 units, 2 cmds, 53 scouting
The various loose cav and LC/LI are required...this is all the Janissaries, plus a couple of Ditch they can at least temporarily operate behind, and cross over if not opposed by anything dangerous to them.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject:

Looks a lot like a Meso army Wink

Obviously I like it, but that is because I love, love, love regular, LMI shooters who fight and this has a crap-ton of them.

Has some problems as LTS is not an optimal combat weapon and they don't have the circulating combat rules of many of the Meso armies making it vulnerable to knights. Obviously it doesn't fear mass elephants with all that bow, BUT Inca/Tepanec should eat this up.

What can it do vs. Macedonians? Shooting doesn't really slow down pike - not with 3 cpf rule. Push with pike and charge with companions at a distance for waivers - should be ok most of the time as "B" troops" but a way to push and get the line disjointed.

Winning will involve shooting to get an overlap or up roll for a disorder somewhere in the enemy line and hopefully exploit it.

Looks fun.

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:43 am    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
Looks a lot like a Meso army Wink

Obviously I like it, but that is because I love, love, love regular, LMI shooters who fight and this has a crap-ton of them.

Has some problems as LTS is not an optimal combat weapon and they don't have the circulating combat rules of many of the Meso armies making it vulnerable to knights. Obviously it doesn't fear mass elephants with all that bow, BUT Inca/Tepanec should eat this up.

What can it do vs. Macedonians? Shooting doesn't really slow down pike - not with 3 cpf rule. Push with pike and charge with companions at a distance for waivers - should be ok most of the time as "B" troops" but a way to push and get the line disjointed.

Winning will involve shooting to get an overlap or up roll for a disorder somewhere in the enemy line and hopefully exploit it.

Looks fun.

Todd


The goal of the stakes and Ditch is to make the enemy less able to fight 'their plan' where they want to.

So pike and similar hard fighting infantry are going to have trouble finding a place to fight.

Also, unlike MesoAmerican armies, Later Ottoman has a solid scouting point total. This enables the army to have better table side choice a deployment options.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject:

I certainly understand all that about stakes and ditches (and I have used them myself), but I wonder if all these fortifications will lead to more 1-1 scores.

Not fun playing siege games IMO
Laughing

Todd

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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject:

Todd Kaeser wrote:
I certainly understand all that about stakes and ditches (and I have used them myself), but I wonder if all these fortifications will lead to more 1-1 scores.

Not fun playing siege games IMO
Laughing

Todd


The goal is not to sit behind them and wait, but rather use them to restrict the table frontage that is fought over...and the Janissaries can just walk over the TFs with no penalty (other than 40p lost movement) anyway.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject:

I understand the intent, but how it often plays out is very different. A typical battle has 5-6 turns in it.

Fox example: Scythed Chariots - designed to disrupt a battle line and cause waivers. What "usually" happens is defender takes 2-3 turns to outmaneuver/avoid chariots and dance back from them - taking away those turns and making the real battle 2-3 turns long - not usually enough for a deciding point total. Lots of 1-1 and 2-1 battles which is a killer in the NICT usually.

The stakes/ditches may cause hesitation on part of your opponent (as they see they can't achieve a result in a few spots) and a resistance to fight on your terms in the one spot on the battle. 2-2 result or 1-1-ish.

The HG units may be able to get into a good shot or two and cause the battle to go in your favor - good troops and can fight as well.

An interesting theory for sure. I love all the "B" grade troops and would be willing to ebb and flow across the battlefield.

Todd

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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject:

I think Frank's version is more a proof of concept than an actual proposal. There are many choices with the current incarnation of Later Ottoman Turk.

If one is seriously thinking about anti-pike troops, then take either a Serbian or Wallachian ally contingent. Having some knights is good, having some Irr A knights is even better, and having dismounted knights in the form of Irr A EHI JLS,Sh should be a very solid counter to pikes.

One can also think about playing a really aggressive game with light troops. The Wallachians are also a possibility here with LC that fight rank and a half as well as the knights. Even more interesting might be the Albanian contingent, giving you LC who both fight a rank and a half and can charge without disorder in brush. Given the typical NICT terrain density on Saturdays, Albanians have a lot of appeal.

So Frank's list is extremely potent along a single dimension, but an actual list would express Frank's Jannissaries as a significant contingent while offering more balance in terms of shock cav and/or attack light cav.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:35 am    Post subject: Later ottomans

My list has 3-4 uniyts of jannisaries and the rest support troops - but it is a very good list IMHO
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Another Style

Another way to take the list is the "Derek" style...with lots of units, including bunches of Irr D and Reg D mounted and foot.

This would be supported by 2-3 Janissary units and 2-3 high morale lancer units.
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:11 am    Post subject:

Reg B LMI [hth weapon] + [missile weapon]

Welcome to the new hotness in 2019 Warrior. And so the wheel of "rock - paper scissors" turns once again. For what it's worth there will be no such troops in my 2019 NICT army.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject:

Mark Stone wrote:
Reg B LMI [hth weapon] + [missile weapon]

Welcome to the new hotness in 2019 Warrior. And so the wheel of "rock - paper scissors" turns once again. For what it's worth there will be no such troops in my 2019 NICT army.


I'm sure, even though you may not be on trend, you will bring the hotness.
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Todd Kaeser
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject:

Frank Gilson wrote:
Mark Stone wrote:
Reg B LMI [hth weapon] + [missile weapon]

Welcome to the new hotness in 2019 Warrior. And so the wheel of "rock - paper scissors" turns once again. For what it's worth there will be no such troops in my 2019 NICT army.


I'm sure, even though you may not be on trend, you will bring the hotness.


or a revisit to the hotness of 2017 and the Tepanec army which is 60% Reg B LMI LTS,S,Sh...... Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Hotness at the NICT

For some reason I am just about the only person who loves Macedonians (I believe there is one other). I enjoy just about every game and every tournament - that makes it a hot army to me
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Hotness at the NICT

lilroblis wrote:
For some reason I am just about the only person who loves Macedonians (I believe there is one other). I enjoy just about every game and every tournament - that makes it a hot army to me


Nothing wrong with the Macedonians...I think people have varying interests in periods of history...and others want 'new things'...or may be tired of pike/elephant from the intense focus that era received at various points in the past.
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