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Biblical chariots shooting -

 
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject: Biblical chariots shooting -

So reading the rules - I surmise that if HcH have a back rank detachment of foot - they cannot skirmish - is that correct? So fron rank HCh second rank LMI - as written it says that chariots cannot skirmish if more than one rank - here they are not - want to be sure I understand the intent
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Robert
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:39 am    Post subject:

I think I answered this in a text...4h HCh in Biblical CAN skirmish, just not any deeper than 1 rank.

and any model that wishes to skirmish must, as usual, have at least one crew with a missile weapon...
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Mark Stone
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject:

Frank wasn't explicit about a key part of Robert's question, namely the effect of LMI detachments labeled as chariot runners on the overall unit's ability to skirmish.

In general LI runners abide by bullet point 11 of 8.7: "LI on a common base with elephants, or behind a single rank of other mounted troops of their own unit, shoot as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body."

The key is that phrase "as if second rank figures of an entirely LI body." So if a front rank chariot can skirmish, then the second rank LI runners treat this as if it were a front rank LI skirmishing, and thus are eligible to skirmish.

Biblical Warrior's list rules extend this rule to LMI who are designated as runners. It's bullet point 5 of Biblical Chariot Rules: "LMI chariot runners shoot in the same circumstances as LI chariot runners...."

Putting this all together you answer each rank by its relevant troop type: the front rank is the only rank of chariots, and therefore eligible to skirmish. The second rank is an LMI Runner detachment, and can skirmish as if a second rank of an entirely LMI unit.
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject:

I think the full explanation of everything would be useful to Robert...he just didn't ask in depth about enough, perhaps.

Biblical HCh with 4 horses with an LMI detachment behind cannot skirmish.

2 or 3 horse such with LMI behind, all models/elements having shooting capability, can skirmish.

The LMI behind AND any LI on the base are treated for firing as if from a 2nd rank of an entirely LI body.

The LI on the base are, however, NOT actually in a 2nd rank, but in the same rank that their chariot model is in.

Thus a unit of 2 chariots, 2 LI on each base, with Reg LMI detachment in a 2nd rank count as 22 figures for casualty calculations.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject: chariot shooters

As I read arks answer - runners can shoot and Franks they cannot. As I read Franks explanation it makes sense - without the rules in front of me - the logic flows - through the Biblical rules
The key difference and the one I asked elsewhere is the biblical rules sate that a single rank of "heavy chariots" can skirmish - clearly the LMI are not chariots. Also clearly to me two people who know the rules exceptionally well get to different places
I need to reread, and would love to talk this out with both - I think it substantially changes how one would pick a chariot army - a second rank of shooters has high value - even if they could not fight, but a fighting second rank is also high value
Thanks both of you - I need to read some more and then Ill follow up with both of you
All the best
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: chariot shooters

lilroblis wrote:
As I read arks answer - runners can shoot and Franks they cannot. As I read Franks explanation it makes sense - without the rules in front of me - the logic flows - through the Biblical rules
The key difference and the one I asked elsewhere is the biblical rules sate that a single rank of "heavy chariots" can skirmish - clearly the LMI are not chariots. Also clearly to me two people who know the rules exceptionally well get to different places
I need to reread, and would love to talk this out with both - I think it substantially changes how one would pick a chariot army - a second rank of shooters has high value - even if they could not fight, but a fighting second rank is also high value
Thanks both of you - I need to read some more and then Ill follow up with both of you
All the best


Ok, do the Biblical rules state that HCh can skirmish in one rank of HCh? No, they state:
"HCh with missile-armed crew may skirmish, if otherwise eligible, provided (in the case of 4-horse HCh) they are not more than one rank deep."
So, if the body containing 4h HCh has more than one rank, no skirmishing for that body.

Have a 4h Biblical HCh with a detachment of LMI attached? Make sure everything is in one rank, one single front rank, if you want it to skirmish. Or, detach the detachment...

"As I read Marks answer - runners can shoot and Franks they cannot."
Incorrect. Runners behind AND LI on the base can shoot, as if they were the 2nd rank of a LI body...even if you have both.

Thus Elamite HCh with LI on the base and detachment of Reg LMI B can fire 12 figures out the front of each individual element.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Biblical Chariots skirmishing

Frank - they refers to chariots - if it was the unit it would say the unit cannot be over a rank - it does not say that - it says that 4HCh can skirmish one rank deep and they (ie the chariots ) - kind of regular english writing - again I am not sure I care - but the rules as written do not refer to units they refer to chariots. This is where a clarification of intent may help - again it does not change the way I will build an army - but the rules nowhere refer to unit - they refer only to chariots
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Frank Gilson
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Biblical Chariots skirmishing

lilroblis wrote:
Frank - they refers to chariots - if it was the unit it would say the unit cannot be over a rank - it does not say that - it says that 4HCh can skirmish one rank deep and they (ie the chariots ) - kind of regular english writing - again I am not sure I care - but the rules as written do not refer to units they refer to chariots. This is where a clarification of intent may help - again it does not change the way I will build an army - but the rules nowhere refer to unit - they refer only to chariots


Ok, I can see the confusion. We'll address that...treat me as an author in this case as at least I'm one of the 3 army list reviewers and we've recently passed Bliblical Warrior back and forth (it's waiting on Bill...or it is Scott).

A unit of HCh with 4 horses involved cannot skirmish if it has any 2nd rank whatsoever.
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lilroblis
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:34 pm    Post subject: Biblical chariots shooting -

Thanks Frank
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